01 Nov 05
Oh, abortion.
I'm not in favour of it, but women choose to have abortions for various reasons. I say, let them choose, and let those who believe it is completely heinous attempt to convince them otherwise. It's not a complex debate at all...For the record though I say that only a nitwit would get his (invariably his) knickers in a knot if someone takes a morning after pill.
01 Nov 05
Originally posted by Bosse de NageWell who the heck tied dj 's knicker in a knot?
Oh, abortion.
I'm not in favour of it, but women choose to have abortions for various reasons. I say, let them choose, and let those who believe it is completely heinous attempt to convince them otherwise. It's not a complex debate at all...For the record though I say that only a nitwit would get his (invariably his) knickers in a knot if someone takes a morning after pill.
01 Nov 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerReally?? Where's the prohibition in Mosaic Law against abortion; they were common in the ancient world and abortion causing drugs are cited in Egyptian texts long before Exodus supposedly occurred. here's a copy of my prior post:
Which translation do you have? My translation says nothing about a fetus not being a human being... Neither does it say that the fetus can be aborted...
Sorry, its Exodus 21;22-24:
22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
EDIT: This is, of course, consistent with explicit provisions in the Jewish Talmud:
The fetus in the womb, says Rashi, classic commentator on the Bible and Talmud, is lav nefish hu, not a person, until he comes into the world. Feticide, then, does not constitute homicide, and the basis for denying it capital-crime status in Jewish law - even for those rabbis who may have wanted to rule otherwise - is scriptural. Alongside the above text is another one in Exodus that reads: "If men strive, and wound a pregnant woman so that her fruit be expelled, but no harm befall [her], then shall he be fined as her husband shall assess...But if harm befall [her], then shalt thou give life for life" (21:22). The Talmud makes this verse's teaching explicit: Only monetary compensation is exacted of him who causes a woman to miscarry. Note also that though the abortion spoken of here is accidental, it contrasts with the homicide (of the mother) which is also accidental. Even unintentional homicide cannot be expiated by a monetary fine.
http://caae.phil.cmu.edu/Cavalier/Forum/abortion/background/judaism1.html#II
Figure it out, dj.
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01 Nov 05
Originally posted by no1marauderI hope you realise that we are discussing abortion and not an accidental miscarriage...
Really?? Where's the prohibition in Mosaic Law against abortion; they were common in the ancient world and abortion causing drugs are cited in Egyptian texts long before Exodus supposedly occurred. here's a copy of my prior post:
Sorry, its Exodus 21;22-24:
22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and ...[text shortened]... ae.phil.cmu.edu/Cavalier/Forum/abortion/background/judaism1.html#II
Figure it out, dj.
01 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderafter reading his quote following yours , I must ask you this:
Really?? Where's the prohibition in Mosaic Law against abortion; they were common in the ancient world and abortion causing drugs are cited in Egyptian texts long before Exodus supposedly occurred. here's a copy of my prior post:
Sorry, its Exodus 21;22-24:
22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and ...[text shortened]... ae.phil.cmu.edu/Cavalier/Forum/abortion/background/judaism1.html#II
Figure it out, dj.
Why bother talking with him?
01 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by dj2beckerI realize it just fine. Exodus 21:22-24 says that if someone causes an accidential miscarriage, they have to pay a fine. But, if they cause an accidental homicide they die. See the difference? Or are you tooooo thick? "Killing" a fetus isn't the same as killing a human being. Got it?
I hope you realise that we are discussing abortion and not an accidental miscarriage...
The Talmud makes that explicit; Jewish law (you know God's chosen people) never considered a fetus a human being. And Mosaic Law never specifically banned abortion; try finding anything in the OT that bans abortion. Sorry, your God has no problem with abortion.
01 Nov 05
Originally posted by no1marauderThe Bible is very specific about the humanity of the unborn child. Correctly translated, your quoted passage says: "If men strove and thrust against a woman with child, who had come near or between them for the purpose of making peace, so that her children come out (come into the world), and no injury was done either to the woman or the child that was born, a pecuniary compensation was to be paid, such as the husband of the woman laid upon him, and he was to give it by arbitrators. . . But if injury occur (to the mother or the child), thou shalt give soul for soul, eye for eye . . ."
Really?? Where's the prohibition in Mosaic Law against abortion; they were common in the ancient world and abortion causing drugs are cited in Egyptian texts long before Exodus supposedly occurred. here's a copy of my prior post:
Sorry, its Exodus 21;22-24:
22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and ...[text shortened]... ae.phil.cmu.edu/Cavalier/Forum/abortion/background/judaism1.html#II
Figure it out, dj.
In the Bible, the same Greek word is used for a fetus, newly born child, and young child (Lk. 1:41, 44; 2:12, 16; 18:15; Acts 7:19).
The phrase woman with child affirms that a fetus is a child (cf. 2 Ki. 19:3; Job 3:13-16; Ec. 11:5; Is. 66:9).
Should I continue?
01 Nov 05
Originally posted by RatXBS. Where do you find THAT translation??
The Bible is very specific about the humanity of the unborn child. Correctly translated, your quoted passage says: "If men strove and thrust against a woman with child, who had come near or between them for the purpose of making peace, so that her children come out (come into the world), and no injury was done either to the woman or the child that was born, a ...[text shortened]... that a fetus is a child (cf. 2 Ki. 19:3; Job 3:13-16; Ec. 11:5; Is. 66:9).
Should I continue?
01 Nov 05
Originally posted by RatXExodus weren't written in Greek but you knew that.
In the Bible, the same Greek word is used for a fetus, newly born child, and young child (Lk. 1:41, 44; 2:12, 16; 18:15; Acts 7:19).
What do you make of the Talmudic interpretation? I'm sure their grasp of Hebrew's firmer than yours.
01 Nov 05
Originally posted by no1marauderNot up your ass, where you seem to have found yours...
BS. Where do you find THAT translation??
1. There is a Hebrew verb for miscarry or lose by abortion or be bereaved of the fruit of the womb, namely, shakal. It is used near by in Exodus 23:26, "None shall miscarry (meshakelah) or be barren..." But this word is NOT used here in Exodus 21:22-25.
2. Rather the word for birth here is "go forth" (ytsa'😉. "And if her children go forth . . ." This verb never refers to a miscarriage or abortion. When it refers to a birth it refers to live children "going forth" or "coming out" from the womb.
Standard Hebrew translation - need help?
01 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI was, as you've not noticed, referring to the Bible as a whole (which was written in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic). It should be understood as a whole - not argued in semantics...
Exodus was (sic) written in Greek, but you knew that.
What do you make of the Talmudic interpretation? I'm sure their grasp of Hebrew's firmer than yours.