27 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderYes, I do believe there are God given rights that people have that no
Do you believe that people have fundamental rights that no government can legitimately take away? Yes or no? You've written your moralistic blatherings over and over and over again; we get it "people are doing things KellyJay thinks are wrong because we're an evil, depraved race, and if we would just listen to the great wisdom of KellyJay and do every ...[text shortened]... t the same thing; why don't you attempt to actually discuss the issues rather than pontificate?
government should be able to take away, but the reality is that
governments can and do take away those rights at will. It also does
not stop with governments doing that either. Society and individuals
too can take away rights from those within their power and influence
as well; it is the way of this world as it now stands. Recognizing what is
and isn’t a fundamental right is as important as the right itself,
recognizing what is worthy to be called valuable is just as important
too.
Currently we live in a world where it isn't always recognized what is
valuable and what isn't. If you or I claim we have a right it must be
recognized as valid and real, the source of that right must be
recognized as legitimate, it is worse for the use of the word “worth”,
though similar to the word ‘right’, something must be valued to carry
any worth. It is totally within each person what it is they value or not,
if they don’t feel something is worthy within them it isn’t. It doesn’t
change what it is they are thinking about when it comes to what is
worthy or not, it goes only to how they view it nothing more.
Different women can get become pregnant at the same time, with one
what is in her is dearly beloved, with the other a germ to be aborted
as soon as she can, they are both carrying the same type thing within
them, at the same level of development as far as the universe is
concern, but within the heart of the women they have the different
values attached to them. The universe is what it is, it does not change
because of the way we view things, our perceptions may change, but a
blue sky is a blue sky no matter what we think about the color blue, it
can be a favorite color or a disliked one.
I believe it was you who said that you did not need to engage in a
debate or discussion about when a person exists, because such a
discussion was merely all subjective judgments. If it wasn’t you I’m
sorry; I looked for the exact quote and could not find it. To that point
I agree, we may give reasons, apply our variables, expose our criteria
to reach “personhood”, or “human life” whatever word we use as the
plateau of worth or value, but it is all subjective. The same thing is
true with the word ‘right’, if the source of our rights is not recognized it
too becomes nothing more than a subjective argument with the
banter being thrown back and forth on what is and isn’t fair and just.
We may recognize God as the author of the universe or not, it does
not change what the universe is. With all of our talk about worth and
rights, nothing we say changes anything in the universe, it all remains
what it is. I was not amazed at the reaction you gave to my question
when I asked how old the child would be had they not aborted him or
her. The fact that had that abortion not taken place, we would see
either a boy or girl who would have met everyone’s current criteria of
worth, shows us what was destroyed really was. That life simply was
cut short as it was unfolding, and it was yet revealed what kind of
person they were going to be.
Truth is what it is no matter what we think about it, our perceptions
don’t change the universe, only our views of it. Recognizing what is
right before our eyes sometimes is difficult because of our
preconceived ideas, but like William Shakespeare wrote in Romeo
and Juliet,
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other word would
smell as sweet."
We can do what we will, assign values to what we see, give our
blessings of worth with all the appropriate rights we deem is required,
but all things within the universe remains what they are. How we deal
with the universe reveals our hearts, someone who sees something
they want and they are willing to take it, even if it belongs to another
show what they are inside. How we deal with each other reveals if we
are hateful, mean spirited, graceful, merciful, or honest and so on.
When we place our family below our friends, when we speak lies,
where we place our priorities show what we are inside. Out of our
mouths come what is inside of us, the universe as we walk in it
reveals us for what we really are.
My goal in this is simply pointing out what it is that abortion does,
kill that life that is forming within. My hope is that what is within
is revealed to be what it is, a human life forming within, and a child
that may like spaghetti, that may draw pictures to be put on the
refrigerator, who may hide behind a blanket while keeping one eye
on the TV sitting beside the parent on the couch, and so on. In the
hope that seeing it as it is, our natural desire to care for our young
would make him or her valuable to us, so that the choice before
each one is not made to abort, because that life is valuable, to
valuable to cast away as if it were nothing but germ that causes bad
breath as you have painted it.
Kelly
27 Nov 05
"Yes, I do believe there are God given rights that people have that no
government should be able to take away, but the reality is that
governments can and do take away those rights at will."
What about Xtians taking away Muslims' right to life in the name of God?
What about Muslims taking away Xtians' right to life in the name of Allah?
28 Nov 05
Originally posted by howardgeeWhat about them?
"Yes, I do believe there are God given rights that people have that no
government should be able to take away, but the reality is that
governments can and do take away those rights at will."
What about Xtians taking away Muslims' right to life in the name of God?
What about Muslims taking away Xtians' right to life in the name of Allah?
Kelly
28 Nov 05
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat makes that life valuable, Kelly?
My goal in this is simply pointing out what it is that abortion does,
kill that life that is forming within. In the
hope that seeing it as it is, our natural desire to care for our young
would make him or her valuable to us, so that the choice before
each one is not made to abort, because that life is valuable, to
valuable to cast away as if it were nothing but germ that causes bad
breath as you have painted it.
What makes this zygote more valuable than the germ that
causes bad breath? What quality about a zygote soon-to-be-
baby gives it value?
(and, while you're at it, what gives a baby value?)
Nemesio
28 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by NemesioNemesio,
What makes that life valuable, Kelly?
What makes this zygote more valuable than the germ that
causes bad breath? What quality about a zygote soon-to-be-
baby gives it value?
(and, while you're at it, what gives a baby value?)
Nemesio
If it isn't in you, it isn't. It is as I told you before, I cannot make
you value anything you do not want to value. It is what it is, a
human life just after conception, it will bypass every marker
of worth I have seen you and others put on it during its normal
stages of human development if left alone while it develops naturally.
You don't think human life is important there is nothing I can do to
make you. I cannot make you value even what we call a baby let
alone anything else, you may not value black people, or white people,
or people with blue eyes, or brown, you value what you value. I have
seen people here condemn others for how they treat or seen others
treated in the past; why, because they value those being mistreated.
We are speaking about our sons and daughters, human life, it is ever
changing, we are ever changing even now, are we worth more at any
stage or less at others?
We might have more ‘rights’ at different stages of life, but that does
not address worth! My son cannot drive a car yet since he is 12, but is
he less important than someone else with a driver’s license now? If
you have a standard to judge the worth of a life just know it is you
setting it; it is only you setting it! What you are judging, is what it is,
your values don’t change anything other than place you as a judge of
human worth. A loved pre-born life is no different than a unloved one,
the only difference is the one judging if the life is worth keeping or
not.
Kelly
28 Nov 05
Originally posted by howardgeeSure, people kill that claim to be pro-life. I think people are flawed,
Well, they are 'God given rights' (according to you) which followers of God have disregarded for centuries. Indeed they have used God as the reason or justification for killing.
Does this strike you as perverse?
and do all manner of evil things in the name of something good.
They can do good in the name of somethign evil too, people are
funny like that. Did you have a point?
Kelly
28 Nov 05
Originally posted by KellyJaySo you are unable to demonstrate why a baby has value? If it is
Nemesio,
If it isn't in you, it isn't. It is as I told you before, I cannot make
you value anything you do not want to value. It is what it is, a
human life just after conception, it will bypass every marker
of worth I have seen you and others put on it during its normal
stages of human development if left alone while it develops naturally.
You d ...[text shortened]... loved one,
the only difference is the one judging if the life is worth keeping or
not.
Kelly
so obviously true, then it should be a simple matter to demonstrate
it rather than engage in your sympathetic rhetoric.
You write '[If] you don't think human life is important there is nothing I
can do to make you.'
Actually, there is a lot you can do. You can compel me with a rational
argument.
If you are unwilling or unable to engage in a rational debate as to why
a baby has value, then your addition to this discussion is simply a matter
of your opinion. And, just as it would be absurd to make a law against
eating chocolate because you don't think it tastes good, it would be
absurd to make a law about human life because you think it has
value.
Demonstrate something.
Nemesio
28 Nov 05
Originally posted by NemesioWhy so I can be like you? You stand in judgment of human life,
So you are unable to demonstrate why a baby has value? If it is
so obviously true, then it should be a simple matter to demonstrate
it rather than engage in your sympathetic rhetoric.
You write '[If] you don't think human life is important there is nothing I
can do to make you.'
Actually, there is a lot you can do. You can compel me with a ra ...[text shortened]... w about human life because you think it has
value.
Demonstrate something.
Nemesio
you have judged life as worthy of life, because....
If you don't see it, if it isn't in you to value a baby, if I have to
give you reasons, you have been dwelling in science to long.
Kelly
29 Nov 05
Originally posted by KellyJayJust out of curiosity here: if those rights are God-given, then why didn't God *give* them in the first place? Why did humans have to fight for those rights over many centuries against tyrants who would deny us them?
Yes, I do believe there are God given rights that people have that no government should be able to take away, but the reality is that
governments can and do take away those rights at will.
29 Nov 05
Originally posted by KellyJayWhether or not one values life has nothing to do with science. I hold the learnings of scientific research in high esteem...and it has done nothing to alter my respect for other living beings.
Why so I can be like you? You stand in judgment of human life,
you have judged life as worthy of life, because....
If you don't see it, if it isn't in you to value a baby, if I have to
give you reasons, you have been dwelling in science to long.
Kelly
The difficulty that would not this same test apply to all contraceptives or even abstinence? The monthly courses could be children of a determinable age, full of playful life. But you don't hear many people complaining at that waste of life, that casual tossing aside of potential smiling faces and giggling toddlers. It seems that this is not so very different than an early abortion via prescription drugs...especially when active contraceptives are used (spermicide, for example).
29 Nov 05
Originally posted by KellyJayThe reason why you have to justify that human life
Why so I can be like you? You stand in judgment of human life,
you have judged life as worthy of life, because....
If you don't see it, if it isn't in you to value a baby, if I have to
give you reasons, you have been dwelling in science to long.
Kelly
is valuable is so that your position becomes one of reason
and not of oppression.
I don't care what you do Kelly. You can run around
at night, naked, praying to Kinzanje to bring rain for the
harvest season for all I care.
The second you start trying to impose this upon other people
just because you feel like it and not with any rationale, is
when I start to object.
If you can't demonstrate why human life is intrinscially valuable,
then stay the hell off other people's bodies.
Nemesio
29 Nov 05
Originally posted by NemesioDo you think KellyJay is capable of "You can compel me with a rational argument".
So you are unable to demonstrate why a baby has value? If it is
so obviously true, then it should be a simple matter to demonstrate
it rather than engage in your sympathetic rhetoric.
You write '[If] you don't think human life is important there is nothing I
can do to make you.'
Actually, there is a lot you can do. You can compel me with a ra ...[text shortened]... w about human life because you think it has
value.
Demonstrate something.
Nemesio
Dream on.
29 Nov 05
Originally posted by NemesioIf you can't demonstrate why human life is intrinscially valuable,
The reason why you have to justify that human life
is valuable is so that your position becomes one of reason
and not of oppression.
I don't care what you do Kelly. You can run around
at night, naked, praying to Kinzanje to bring rain for the
harvest season for all I care.
The second you start trying to impose this upon other peop ...[text shortened]... human life is intrinscially valuable,
then stay the hell off other people's bodies.
Nemesio
then stay the hell off other people's bodies.
Why is human life intrinsically not valuable?
29 Nov 05
Originally posted by NemesioWhat part of what I said had anything to do with other people's
The reason why you have to justify that human life
is valuable is so that your position becomes one of reason
and not of oppression.
I don't care what you do Kelly. You can run around
at night, naked, praying to Kinzanje to bring rain for the
harvest season for all I care.
The second you start trying to impose this upon other peop ...[text shortened]... human life is intrinscially valuable,
then stay the hell off other people's bodies.
Nemesio
bodies? Have I asked that we pass laws, have I called for anything
to be done or not done to other people's bodies? So why are you
criticizing me for things I have not called for, saying I need to stay
the hell off other people’s bodies?
You don't recognize human life as having intrinsic value that is
noted. You judge according to your personal tastes, you like this,
you do not like that; you don't feel something is valuable if it isn’t
developed enough to suit you, so it can be destroyed; not to big a
deal as far as you are concern I guess. No great loss, those lives
are not anything to you, and if anyone finds those lives valuable,
well ‘hell’ they must be like me, oppressors. I don’t ask for
anything to be done, yet you call my value of human life
oppressive. You place yourself in agreement with those that find
little or no value in human life at its earliest stages, so it is okay to
abort those human lives, so what does that make you in your
world view, enlightened and caring?
Kelly