Absurd Escapism

Originally posted by DeepThought

The problem with your position is that you are insisting that in the Christian cosmology it is consistent for souls to remember their life post-mortem, but that it is not for souls to be able to remember lives after they have ended in cosmologies containing reincarnation. Your justification for this is "God sorts it out".

I think i said that if any man has difficulty remembering, God can bring back every "idle word" and act to his recollection.

" And I say to you that every idle word which men shall speak, they will render an account of in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified
, and by your words you shall be condemned. " (Matt. 12:36,37)

I don't remember very idle word spoken YESTERDAY. Jesus is saying expect God to remind you with an infallible record.

The phrase "idle word" here means a speaking the accomplishes nothing. How much more men will give account for long mean speeches against God ?

" ... Behold, the Lord came with myriads of His saints to execute judgment against all and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly works which they have done in ungodliness, and concerning all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." (Jude 15)

So you've added a necessity claim for souls to retain memories.

I have said many times that if there is a problem of memory God can bring back to mind whatever He wants to bring to a man's remembrance.

However, surely this is nomological - there is nothing inconsistent with a possible world where God doesn't need to sort it out and the soul remembers it's mortal existence in whichever afterlife it is destined for, independently of the state of memory of the mortal part during life, and so by extension there is nothing inconsistent in possible worlds similar to the actual world in which reincarnation pertains and souls do remember previous lives although the physical mind of an incarnation only has access to the current life. So I don't think you've established necessity.

There is no reincarnation.

" And inasmuch as it is reserved for men to die once, and after this comes judgment." (Heb. 9:27)

A man lives once. A man dies once.
That is the norm we are given. Our experience does not negate this.

In seances and other deep occult practices sometimes people are deceived into thinking they are contacting someone's past life or someone is being "channeled" from the past to a present person.

The demonic spirits are deceiving men. And in occultism people can be led astray by deceiving spirits that they are contacting someone's past self or something like that.

Demons provide men with things they want to believe besides the word of God.
They can adopt their deception to the current culture or take into account modernity and current technology.

Jesus tells the very graphic teaching of a rich man who in Hades REMEMBERED his life on earth. And he recalled that he had five brothers that he longed would be warned that they would not come to the same place of punishment he found himself in.

Luke 16:19-31 .

Some Bible teachers say that this portion of the New Testament is a parable. But in no other parable did Jesus mention ANYONE specifically by name. In Luke 16:19-31 He mentions Lazarus. And the better interpretation is that Jesus was telling of something that He knew had happened.

me;
But if there is no absolute Person then whose person's opinion should we put as the ultimate standard ?

Well, either this is objective in some way, which seems to be implied by the word "absolute", or it's not. Now, if it is objective then we don't need to rely on anyone's opinion to determine it, it's determined in the way the absolute temperature scale is. If on the other hand it isn't objective then you have to accept LJ's claim that your position is subjectivist.

You should think rather in terms of an Enforcer. A mere scale or measuring rod is not an Enforcer. And Enforcer requires personhood.

" For just as the Father raises the dead and gives the life, so also the Son gives ife to whom he wills.

For neither does the Father judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, In order that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father,. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." (John 21-23)

Jesus taught, not an impersonal rule or scale of measure will judge but Person.

The emphatic scene of the final judgment before a "great white throne" shows the dead suspended before one from whose "face" earth and heaven flee away.

" And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose face earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life.

And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their deeds." (Rev. 20:11-13)

The books may be things. The face means the Person of Christ Who is designated by God to judge the living and the dead.

" ... He [God] has set a day in which He is to judge the world in righteousness by the man whom He has designated, and having furnished proof to all by raising Him from the dead." (Acts 17:31)

The universe of heaven and earth flees away. The ones to be judged stand suspended before the face of the Judge upon the great white throne.

This One was also the Redeemer Who died that our names may be recorded in the book of life, a book of the record of those to be saved,

"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

We see nothing of bamboo becomes lotus flower becomes ant becomes frog becomes dog becomes Jill becomes John become Gary becomes Linda becomes whoever then whoever then whoever then whoever and THEY are judged. No sorting out of reincarnated souls transmigrating over the centuries will occur.

Men and women live once and die once for the most part.

You seem to be strongly attached to a notion that without a single globally governing personality nothing is possible. Roughly speaking your position seems to be: "Necessarily, if there is no God then nothing else can exist either.".

I don't follow that critique. But if I implied it I was wrong. Or you misunderstood me.

So there is no way that anything could have come about, never mind life, without a God. This has led you to insist that a personality is necessary for something a personality isn't necessary for, in this case the memory of souls.

I don't recognize any of this as being implied by me.

What has been objected to was me saying something like this - if justice does not exist then how can we speak of injustice ?

I am still considering if this kind of argument could be stated differently or better. And I am not fully convinced yet it needs to be. But perhaps.

I think Reincarnation would believe that many deaths would clear and refine and cleanse a soul. The New Testament says one ONE death, that of the Son of God, justifies sinners before God.

The worth of that Substitute is sufficient to cover billions of lives on earth before God. From man's perspective it appears as free forgiveness. For God's perspective there is no such thing as free forgiveness. Sin must be JUDGED. It is forgiveness based on the fact the sin has been judged in Christ on our behalf.

God underscores that the worth and preciousness of that ONE life can atone for all who have ever lived.

His resurrection is proof that God has accepted His death on behalf of all sinners. Had He Himself been a sinner He could only die for Himself. And He would have stayed death. His resurrection is the seal that God has accepted His petition, His intercession that we be forgiven.

" And when they came to the place called The Skull. there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and one on the left.

And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." (Luke 23:33,34a)

The interceding prayer of such a Person should not be taken lightly. When the Son of God prays its power has eternal significance. He interceded.

God answered His petition on the grounds that He would forgive all who believe into the Son of God. Substitution takes place when we believe and receive Jesus the Son of God as Lord and Savior.

This is a prayer of a Person to a Person (for lack of a better human language word). It is not just a measuring line or an object without life. This is a super Person. A Divine Life as Judge AND as Savior too. We are dealing with God.

Originally posted by sonship
I believe everyone reading this discussion will be have their moral wrongs judged ultimately at one of two places.

1.) On Calvary in Christ's death on His cross as a Redeemer.
2.) Or before God on some day of final judgment in the presence of Absolute righteousness. .

Who is "judged"? What is "judged"? People like you and Grampy Bobby and others here have been insisting for years that once someone believes in Jesus, their "salvation" cannot be undone, even by their "sins", which - you firmly believe - were preemptively "forgiven" by Jesus.

Are you now conceding that when you appear "before God on some day of final judgment in the presence of Absolute righteousness" (as you claim you will) you may end up being consigned to "damnation" as a result of your "moral wrongs" and despite your faith in Jesus?

Originally posted by sonship

The problem with your position is that you are insisting that in the Christian cosmology it is consistent for souls to remember their life post-mortem, but that it is not for souls to be able to remember lives after they have ended in cosmologies containing reincarnation. Your justification for this is "God sorts it out".

I think i said t ...[text shortened]... ngs which were written in the scrolls, according to their deeds." (Rev. 20:11-13) [/quote][/b]

Your argument is inconsistent. You attempt to refute reincarnation because we cannot bring to mind memories from previous lives. However, if souls cannot carry memories beyond one life time then there is a problem with the final judgement. So you then have God giving all the souls their memories back. In which case there would appear not to be a block on souls possessing memories. There is no reason to insist on the souls losing their memories acquired during life, so there is no reason reincarnation should not work and you cannot show that the existence of a personal God is necessary for absolute justice.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Your argument is inconsistent. You attempt to refute reincarnation because we cannot bring to mind memories from previous lives. However, if souls cannot carry memories beyond one life time then there is a problem with the final judgement. So you then have God giving all the souls their memories back. In which case there would appear not to be a bloc ...[text shortened]... d you cannot show that the existence of a personal God is necessary for absolute justice.

So what drives reincarnation? What is the cause of it's existence?

Originally posted by FMF
Who is "judged"? What is "judged"? People like you and Grampy Bobby and others here have been insisting for years that once someone believes in Jesus, their "salvation" cannot be undone, even by their "sins", which - you firmly believe - were preemptively "forgiven" by Jesus.

Are you now conceding that when you appear "before God on some day of final judgment ...[text shortened]... ing consigned to "damnation" as a result of your "moral wrongs" and despite your faith in Jesus?

Which part of 'Jesus took our punishment upon himself' do you not understand? Or is it more a matter of you will not accept it?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So what drives reincarnation? What is the cause of it's existence?

What is the cause of God's existence?

Originally posted by DeepThought
What is the cause of God's existence?

God is eternal, the first uncaused cause of the universe. He would be the one that 'drives' universal justice. So if he did not exist what would drive/cause reincarnation?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Which part of 'Jesus took our punishment upon himself' do you not understand? Or is it more a matter of you will not accept it?

Asking me these two questions constitutes yet another post in your posting history but, as is so often the case, it's a post that does nothing to the further the conversation that is going on.

Asking me these two questions does not address the point that I have made to sonship alluding to the rather blatant incoherence of what he claims.

Who will be "judged"? What will they be "judged" for? If, as OSAS Christians contend, "salvation" is guaranteed [to those with "faith"] regardless of their "sin", and if ~ as many Christians like sonship claim ~ non-Christians will suffer "damnation" anyway, regardless of their virtues, right-doing & wrong-doing, and well-lived lives, then what is all this regurgitated and essentially meaningless dogma about people getting judged by going "before God on some day of final judgment in the presence of Absolute righteousness" all about?

Your tangential questions appear to be an attempt to avoid discussing this point. 'Jesus took our punishment upon himself' is a slogan. It is a mere slogan and, as such, it does not bear scrutiny.

Originally posted by FMF
Asking me these two questions constitutes yet another post in your posting history but, as is so often the case, it's a post that does nothing to the further the conversation that is going on.

Asking me these two questions does not address the point that I have made to sonship alluding to the rather blatant incoherence of what he claims.

Who will be "jud ...[text shortened]... ment upon himself'[/i] is a slogan. It is a mere slogan and, as such, it does not bear scrutiny.

I don't think anyone is claiming that a Christian who claims to have faith but continues living in wilful sin will be saved. Correct me if I am wrong.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
I don't think anyone is claiming that a Christian who claims to have faith but continues living in wilful sin will be saved. Correct me if I am wrong.

If you're not a 'Once Saved Always Saved' Christian, then so be it. But you've been here 6 months, so it's a wee bit odd that you have somehow not noticed the ideology being propagated here. I'll wait and see if you confront those who do promote it, although it's of course your prerogative as to whether you do or not. Meanwhile my question to sonship stands.

Originally posted by FMF
If you're not a 'Once Saved Always Saved' Christian, then so be it. But you've been here 6 months, so it's a wee bit odd that you have somehow not noticed the ideology being propagated here. I'll wait and see if you confront those who do promote it, although it's of course your prerogative as to whether you do or not. Meanwhile my question to sonship stands.

When did a OSAS Christian claim that they can live in wilful sin and still be saved?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
When did a OSAS Christian claim that they can live in wilful sin and still be saved?

If you're not a peddler of OSAS ideology, then good for you ~ it's as daft as Christian beliefs get, as far as I am concerned. I'm not interested in you scrutinizing their ideology by way of a conversation with me. If they want to correct me, then they can. If you think I've got it wrong, then that's fine by me.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I thought so ... 😀 .. comedian

Already, again this isn't communication it is pure insult. You didn't even make it into the
first piece without lowering this into your normal spew.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
I don't think anyone is claiming that a Christian who claims to have faith but continues living in wilful sin will be saved. Correct me if I am wrong.

You are wrong so Im correcting you. Sonship and checkbaiter have repeatedly said this. If you know of passages in the Bible that support your statement that a Christian will not be saved if he continues with wilful sin, and you present these verses to sonshiip of checkbaiter, they will show you that your interpretation s incorrect.