Originally posted by telerionThink of it as a simple matter of on whom the burden of proof is on. To an atheist, the burden of proof is on the theist and the default position is that there are no gods. To the agnostic, no burden of proof resides on the theist and there is no default position; he evaluates the evidence with an open mind. He just hasn't come to a conclusion yet (and might not in this lifetime).
I'm agnostic about all sorts of things. One of those would be whether some conscious force created the universe. I'm also an atheist because I am not a theist.
Originally posted by dottewellIs there a name for people who believe that God only knows what people who believe we cannot determine whether "God exists" has meaning would be called?
There may be a third category, i.e. those who believe we cannot determine whether "God exists" has meaning. God only knows what we'd call them.
Originally posted by NordlysI didn't mean you, I meant agnostics in general, me in particular ...
Me? No. I have to admit that I had to read my own sentence several times to make sure it was correct, though.
Would "agnostic" fit the description of what you have described?
I mean, the phrase "God only knows" could mean that nobody knows, yet it seems to imply that whatever it is that is under discussion is at least knowable, at least the speaker of the phrase seems to think so, since she says that God knows. If the speaker is agnostic about god, we are on somewhat shaky ground ...
Ah, confused again.
Merry New Year!
Originally posted by no1marauderhe evaluates the evidence with an open mind. He just hasn't come to a conclusion yet (and might not in this lifetime).
Hold the line. No conclusion is lack of decision? As the issue in salvation is either acceptance or rejection of the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross, where is the middle ground?
Do you think a 'pass' is given those who, upon facing the Great White Throne Judge, are able to muster up as defense, "This one doesn't count, Your Majesty, as I never really technically decided either for or against You, as I never came to a conclusion as to the veracity of God, in general."
As atheism arrogantly rejects any notion of God without the requisite knowledge to conclude as such, agnosticism attempts to withhold a decision, but in so doing, makes a decision, nonetheless.
To believe is not the same as knowing. To know something, we must experience it. However, as any criminal investigator will tell you, several witnesses can have very different descriptions of a specific event. It's a puzzle colored by the witness' own experiences and previous knowledge.
Life itself, the mysteries around us, are puzzling to us. How can anyone of their right mind (theist or atheist) claim that they know there is or there isn't a God? That's just plain stupid. Let me elaborate.
Someone calls him-/herself an atheist because: the probability of the existence of a God is so small that it's safe to say there is no God. The burden of proof, after all, lies on the shoulders of the theist. (S)he's the one claiming that there is something out there that the rest of us can't see. My apologies to all atheists of this kind, but that's a cop-out to me. If you can't proove it, you really don't know. To be an (a)theist is to be the opposite of a theist. Let's look at the theist, shall we.
Now, here's an interesting creature. Without any evidence whatsoever, the theist will tell you that there is a God. (S)he will claim that the proof is all around us. That nothing as fantastic as our world and the universe around it can have arosen from a chaotic state without an underlying intelligence. Again, you have people stating their belief to be correct, based on what they think they can perceive. It's only a belief. It's not fact. And any theist will throw back the burden of proof in the face of the atheist. If I cannot proove my point of view to be correct, let's have the opposition proove that it is incorrect. Since the matter is entirely beyond the human capacity for testing, we can safely assume that no disproof of God will ever be found. We cannot proove his/her existence, so how can anyone proove that (s)he doesn't exist? he, he...
Can you see the stupidity of claiming to know there is or there isn't a God? All a person can do is believe. So you either believe there is a God or there isn't. Well, that's an entirely different matter all together, isn't it?
The agnostic says that we cannot possibly know if there is a God or not. The agnostic can be a theist or atheist in the sense that (s)he believes there is a God or not, but (s)he will never claim that (s)he knows this to be true, because that would be a pure lie; obvious to anyone with a little common sense.
The agnostic acknowledges the fact that whether there is a God, no God or something else entirely, we cannot know this. The agnostic therefore says: I don't know if there is a God or not. Anything that is out of my perception is possible. If I find one belief system to be likely I can choose to follow it, but I still won't know if that belief system is based on truth or not. If I know, I no longer believe. And the concept of a God or no God is entirely a matter of belief.
[Edit: In short, it takes intelligence to be a good agnostic. 🙂]
Originally posted by FreakyKBHIn your warped belief system, but since there's almost certainly not a "Great White Throne" except in my bathroom, I don't worry about it tooooooooooooo much.
[b]he evaluates the evidence with an open mind. He just hasn't come to a conclusion yet (and might not in this lifetime).
Hold the line. No conclusion is lack of decision? As the issue in salvation is either acceptance or rejection of the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross, where is the middle ground?
Do you think a 'pass' is given those who, ...[text shortened]... nosticism attempts to withhold a decision, but in so doing, makes a decision, nonetheless.[/b]
Originally posted by no1marauderWish I could take credit for it, but this belief system has been around since, well, ever.
In your warped belief system, but since there's almost certainly not a "Great White Throne" except in my bathroom, I don't worry about it tooooooooooooo much.
And, per usual, the only thing emanating from your throne is...