air miles

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Problem? where's the problem? The fact of the matter is that God had created an
environment which should have been conducive to the accepting of the Messiah, the
nation of Israel, after all, they had the Law and the prophets and had practised a
type of worship which should have alerted them to many validating factors, this is
simply not tru Christians have played the flute, its not our fault if others refuse
to dance, is it.

“...Problem? where's the problem? The fact of the matter is that God had created an
environment which should have been conducive to the accepting of the Messiah, the
nation of Israel,...”

so why stop there? i.e. why would 'God' not make the whole world “conducive to the accepting of the Messiah” rather than just Israel?
You just swapped one problem with another.

“...You state that his message was universal, and it was, and Christ intimated that his
followers would carry that message to the 'most distant parts of the earth', which
they did, ...”

the “ most distant parts of the earth” does not equate with sending his message to everyone and not everyone has got his message. Therefore, Christ, despite that he was supposed to have had god-like powers, has failed to give everyone his message even if his strategy was to just leave it up to his followers. So why didn't he avoid this failure by using his 'godly magical powers' to simply send everyone his message himself? ( Unless he didn't care if not everyone got his message? -if so, why? ) .

“...So where's the problem, i dont see any, the teaching just happens to be in the most
widely translated, widely distributed book in the entire history of humanity ...”

a message being “the most widely translated, widely distributed book in the entire history of humanity” does not equate with sending a message to everyone.
Again, not everyone has got his message. ( ...my same questions as before inserted here...).

“...It appears to me that Christians have played the flute, its not our fault if others refuse
to dance, is it. ...”

-but why didn't he play this 'flute' to everyone so that everyone at least given a choice to either dance to it or not dance to it? -that's the problem. Not everyone has heard his message.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
When I was at school the RE teacher (a vicar ) informed us that the timing of the Messiah was no accident; it was at a time when communication throughout the civilised world was made easy thanks to the Roman Empire.

Even at the time I thought radio and tv would have made his job easier!

Yahshua had to come when He did in order to fulfill the prophecy given to
Daniel of the seventy weeks of years.

Originally posted by humy
“...Problem? where's the problem? The fact of the matter is that God had created an
environment which should have been conducive to the accepting of the Messiah, the
nation of Israel,...”

so why stop there? i.e. why would 'God' not make the whole world “conducive to the accepting of the Messiah” rather than just Israel?
You just swapped one probl to it or not dance to it? -that's the problem. Not everyone has heard his message.

God did not stop anywhere, but he had to start somewhere, your objections amount to
this, why did God not speak to all nations with these universal truths, now soundly
refuted, for in fact he has in the form of a book, the most widely distributed, widely
available and widely translated book in the entire history of humanity, your problems, if
they can be termed problems, i prefer the term fabrications, but that's just me, amount
to nothing in view of this verifiable and incontrovertible evidence, You can accept these
facts or you cannot, it makes little difference to me, as for not everyone hearing the
message, what makes you think we are finished preaching and teaching yet?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No they will be resurrected in the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous,
and given an opportunity to learn about our God,

(Acts 24:15) . . .and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also
entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the
unrighteous.

how do we know the quote is talking about other peoples of the world?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
how do we know the quote is talking about other peoples of the world?

because they are the unrighteous, those who have never had an opportunity to get to
know about God, otherwise, they could never be declared as righteous, could they, for
that takes a degree of knowledge

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
God did not stop anywhere, but he had to start somewhere, your objections amount to
this, why did God not speak to all nations with these universal truths, now soundly
refuted, for in fact he has in the form of a book, the most widely distributed, widely
available and widely translated book in the entire history of humanity, your problems, if
veryone hearing the
message, what makes you think we are finished preaching and teaching yet?

“...God did not stop anywhere, but he had to start somewhere, ...”

why not everywhere? Surely a true 'god' can do that?
Besides, where 'he' started isn't the issue here; the issue being raised here is why didn't he use his powers to give his message to everyone?

“...your objections amount to ...”

what “objection”? I am not “objecting” but pointing out a problem.

“...your objections amount to this, why did God not speak to all nations with these universal truths, ...”

no, I am not claiming the message contains “ universal truths”.

“...now soundly refuted, ...”

I am having difficulty with your syntax here: what is “now soundly refuted”? Are you saying that the “ universal truths” are “now soundly refuted”?

“..your problems,...”

they are not 'my' problems.

“... if they can be termed problems, i prefer the term fabrications, ...”

is the fact that, for example, not everyone has heard his message a “fabrication”? Can you explicitly list these “ fabrications” so that I can see what these fabrications I have said in my posts in this thread are?

“...but that's just me, amount
to nothing in view of this verifiable and incontrovertible evidence, You can accept these
facts or you cannot, ...”

which “facts” are you referring to in the above and how does these facts relate to my last post?

“...as for not everyone hearing the
message, what makes you think we are finished preaching and teaching yet? ...”

I didn’t think that. So are you implying that one day every living person on Earth will hear the message and that is the point?
If so, what about the people that have lived after Christ and then died without ever hearing his message? And what about the people that are alive now but will never hear his message before they die? Why hasn't Christ or 'God' used godly magic to insure that ALL people after Christ will hear his message while they have a choice to make use of his message in life before they die?


I neglected to ask you for clarification:
Would you claim ( or at least believe ) that Christ's message is meant for everyone?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
because they are the unrighteous, those who have never had an opportunity to get to
know about God, otherwise, they could never be declared as righteous, could they, for
that takes a degree of knowledge

if all are resurrected and are given a chance to learn about god at that point, why does it mater to learn about god now? doesnt it make what we do now irrelevant.

Originally posted by humy
“...God did not stop anywhere, but he had to start somewhere, ...”

why not everywhere? Surely a true 'god' can do that?
Besides, where 'he' started isn't the issue here; the issue being raised here is why didn't he use his powers to give his message to everyone?

“...your objections amount to ...”

what “objection”? I am not “objecting” but pointing ou ould you claim ( or at least believe ) that Christ's message is meant for everyone?

Would you claim ( or at least believe ) that Christ's message is meant for everyone?

I have twice, perhaps three times now done just that, Christ's message is universal.

1.why did he not start with everyone's, bible states that he chose a nation, as his
representatives.

2. why did he not use his powers to do so, bible states he chose a nation to be his
representatives, individuals within that nation , termed prophets were empowered to
demonstrate that they had authority from God through miraculous powers.

3. surely a true god can do that, yes so what?

4, facts, bible the most widely distributed, widely available and widely translated
book in history of humanity, available to majority of mankind and has been for
hundreds of years.

5.what about the people that have lived after Christ and then died without ever
hearing his message? they will be resurrected and given the opportunity to learn
about God and Christ.

6.Why hasn't Christ or 'God' used godly magic to insure that ALL people after Christ
will hear his message, because he is not a conjurer, nor a magician.

if you have a concern concerning the Bible or its contents ill be happy to answer,
questions like, surely a true god can do that, are meaningless to me and provide
nothing but endless speculation, what ifs and could be's and in my opinion are quite
futile.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
if all are resurrected and are given a chance to learn about god at that point, why does it mater to learn about god now? doesnt it make what we do now irrelevant.

It matters because on the basis of how you respond to the good news determines
whether you shall get life or not, it could hardly be deemed just to condemn those who
never had an opportunity, would it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
It matters because on the basis of how you respond to the good news determines
whether you shall get life or not, it could hardly be deemed just to condemn those who
never had an opportunity, would it.

it cannot have value to god that he be in your life during your life if no effort is made to be in the life of most people that have lived, only a tiny minority of people are and have been christians. if god doesnt deem it important for everybody to know his word during mortal life then why would he care when an atheist changes their mind and if that happens to be when the athiest stands before god then god is happy that the atheist has converted and the atheist is happy to get the proof they were looking for. i

why should i look for christianity in this life if its meaning is lost to me, in gods eyes doesnt that make me equal to a tribesman in africa who is baffled by the teachings of a christian missionary.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
It matters because on the basis of how you respond to the good news determines
whether you shall get life or not, it could hardly be deemed just to condemn those who
never had an opportunity, would it.

I agree, Robbie, it does matter.

"Living with "God" " (I really didn't know how to phrase that), is a full time occupation, would you agree, Rob?

Not that , I really resonated, or really understood for the rest of your post.

Oh, well 1 out of 2 aint bad.

I wont even tell you why I think its important to me unless you ask for it 😉

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I agree, Robbie, it does matter.

"Living with "God" " (I really didn't know how to phrase that), is a full time occupation, would you agree, Rob?

Not that , I really resonated, or really understood for the rest of your post.

Oh, well 1 out of 2 aint bad.

I wont even tell you why I think its important to me unless you ask for it 😉

ok Karoly, why is it important (squints eyes)

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Would you claim ( or at least believe ) that Christ's message is meant for everyone?

I have twice, perhaps three times now done just that, Christ's message is universal.

1.why did he not start with everyone's, bible states that he chose a nation, as his
representatives.

2. why did he not use his powers to do so, bible states he chose a nat ng but endless speculation, what ifs and could be's and in my opinion are quite
futile.

“...I have twice, perhaps three times now done just that, Christ's message is universal. ...”

OK, didn't know in what sense you meant by “universal” in this context but thanks for clarifying that.

“...1.why did he not start with everyone's, bible states that he chose a nation, as his
representatives. ...”

I am having difficulty with your syntax: -with everyone's what?

“...2. why did he not use his powers to do so, ...”

you mean why did he not use his powers to send his message to everyone.

“..bible states he chose a nation to be his
representatives, individuals within that nation , termed prophets were empowered to
demonstrate that they had authority from God through miraculous powers. ...”

OK. Now back to the question; why did he not use his powers to send his message to everyone?
You answer here a DIFFERENT question in the above which is “how did he send his message to people” but that is not the question I asked and any answer to this question does not answer the question I pose. The question “ why did he not use his powers to send his message to everyone? “ is not asking HOW he sends his message.

“...3. surely a true god can do that, yes so what? ...”

-so why didn't he? That is the answer to your “so what?”.

“...4, facts, bible the most widely distributed, widely available and widely translated
book in history of humanity, available to majority of mankind and has been for
hundreds of years. ...”

is that comment in response to my comment of “which “facts” are you referring to in the above and how does these facts relate to my last post? “ when you previously said “... if they can be termed problems, i prefer the term fabrications, but that's just me, amount
to nothing in view of this verifiable and incontrovertible evidence, You can accept these
facts or you cannot, ...” ?

if so, then you are apparently saying I deny the fact that “bible the most widely distributed, widely available and widely translated
book in history of humanity, available to majority of mankind and has been for
hundreds of years. ...” -but I am not! And I haven't ever denied this!
So I have made no such “fabrication” as you suggest.
And, in addition, I have already pointed out that the fact of the wide distribution of the Bible does not equate with everyone hearing its message.

“...5.what about the people that have lived after Christ and then died without ever
hearing his message? they will be resurrected and given the opportunity to learn
about God and Christ. ...”

then does it matter if a person hears his message before he dies or not? Yes or no?
If the answer is “no” then why bother to send anybody the message to the living if they will get it anyway when they are 'resurrected' from the dead? In fact, what would be the point of even having a Bible at all!? And why would 'God' give some people the message while they are alive but not others while they are alive? -I mean, is there a reason for such apparently arbitrary discrimination between different living people?
On the other hand, if the answer is “yes”, then that brings us back to the original still yet unanswered question:
why did he not use his powers to send his message to everyone ( while they are alive in this world, obviously ) ?

“...6.Why hasn't Christ or 'God' used godly magic to insure that ALL people after Christ
will hear his message, because he is not a conjurer, nor a magician. ...”

that 'answer' makes no sense; surely, by definition, anyone that can preform “miracles” and is either a god or has supernatural god-like powers can preform “magic” and so IS a real magician! ( i.e. not merely doing tricks ) . isn't what you would call a “miracle” something that involves supernatural “magic”? If not, then what is the distinction between a person ( such as Jesus ) performing a “miracle” and that same person performing a bit of supernatural “magic”?

“...questions like, surely a true god can do that, are meaningless to me and provide
nothing but endless speculation,....”

isn't this 'God' of yours is supposed to be all-powerful? Yes or no?
If yes, then, why on earth would it be “ endless speculation” that this 'God' could send his message to everyone? It wouldn't be “endless speculation” but “deductively true” because being all-powerful LOGICALLY IMPLIES that he can do this. And so why would this be “meaningless”?

“..what ifs and could be's and in my opinion are quite futile. ...”

the “..what ifs and could be's...” i.e. the hypothetical are essential considerations for any intelligent beings such as ourselves. If you never consider it then you would not learn to speak ( how would a child guess the meaning of such words as “plan” and “reality” and “invisible” without being given a definition consisting of other words? ) and you would be mentally retarded and probably dribbling in a mental home. Without considering the hypothetical, we would have no science and technology and we would still be in the stone age ( we wouldn't even have religion nor any other delusion -but that is one of the very few good thing that would result from not considering the hypothetical ) -so much for the “what ifs and could be's.” being “futile”.

Originally posted by humy
“...I have twice, perhaps three times now done just that, Christ's message is universal. ...”

OK, didn't know in what sense you meant by “universal” in this context but thanks for clarifying that.

“...1.why did he not start with everyone's, bible states that he chose a nation, as his
representatives. ...”

I am having difficulty with your syntax: -wi etical ) -so much for the “what ifs and could be's.” being “futile”.

I have said all i need to say, answered your questions to the best of my ability
sometimes twice and three times, these endless debates over speculative
questionings interest me little, I will reiterate it for the last time seeing that you
are having trouble with it,

If you have any questions with regard to the actual content of the Bible (let me define
that for you , just in case you have a problem with the definition of terms. Bible: the
sixty six little books from Genesis to Revelation. Content: those words and phrases which
are actually contained within the collection of those sixty six little books) I will be happy
to answer, otherwise, please spare me the endless reams of speculative questions, they
interest me little.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have said all i need to say, answered your questions to the best of my ability
sometimes twice and three times, these endless debates over speculative
questionings interest me little, I will reiterate it for the last time seeing that you
are having trouble with it,

If you have any questions with regard to [b]the actual content of the ...[text shortened]... therwise, please spare me the endless reams of speculative questions, they
interest me little.[/b]

“...I have said all i need to say, answered your questions to the best of my ability
sometimes twice and three times, ...”

actually, you only answered the central question once and once only.
The question basically was:

why did he not use his powers to send his message to everyone? ( while they are alive in this world, obviously )

all but one of your responses did not answer this question but rather answered the question of HOW he intended to send his message which is a DIFFERENT question.
Note that asking and answering this question should not require “endless speculation” if the question does not pose a problem as you claim.

Your only real answer ( which you took an eternity to finally spit out ) was:

“...what about the people that have lived after Christ and then died without ever
hearing his message? they will be resurrected and given the opportunity to learn
about God and Christ ….”

OK. But, as I basically pointed out before in my last post, that just answers one problem with another; namely, the problem that I said was:
“then does it matter if a person hears his message before he dies or not? Yes or no?
If the answer is “no” then why bother to send anybody the message to the living if they will get it anyway when they are 'resurrected' from the dead? In fact, what would be the point of even having a Bible at all!? And why would 'God' give some people the message while they are alive but not others while they are alive? -I mean, is there a reason for such apparently arbitrary discrimination between different living people?
On the other hand, if the answer is “yes”, then that brings us back to the original still yet unanswered question:
why did he not use his powers to send his message to everyone ( while they are alive in this world, obviously ) ? ...(my quote) “

if this is not a “problem” as you claim then you would have easily answered it by now and without any need for “endless speculation” nor any need to swap it for a different problem so I take it that you have no good answer.
Note that I am not making “endless speculation” but merely asking questions. If there is any “endless speculation” here it can only come from “endless speculation” of what the answer to the problem posed here could be for it is very far from obvious what the answer could be ( unless we assume your particular religious beliefs relevant to this problem to be false of course ) . Can you explicitly list these “endless speculations” ( mere questions don't count: “question” does not equal “speculation” for I am not claiming anything from just asking! -so don't list my questions! ) that I have made and say which one of my quotes contain them?

Note that I am not asking you to preform “endless speculations”. In fact, I am not even asking you to answer the central question! -although a simple acknowledgement that you admit that you don't have a good answer ( therefore, the question does pose a 'problem' ) would be nice.

You also accused me of “fabrications” but have not yet made explicit what these “fabrications” are that I was supposed to have made ( reminder: “...your problems, if they can be termed problems, i prefer the term fabrications, ...” ( your quote ) ) -can you list them and say which one of my quotes contain them?