13 May 07
Originally posted by Zander 88I like your answer, even being the theist I am.
Hi.
[b]Most importantly, does the mystery of existence disturb the surety of your atheism?
This is a difficult question for me to answer, but I will try my best. The most perplexing mystery of existence to me is the "why". Why do we exist? No matter how hard I try, I cannot rationalize it from either a scientific or religious viewpoint. Perhaps i ...[text shortened]... rs who have said they have, given there is no empirical evidence to support their claims.[/b]
Kind of random (on my part), but still worth saying.
13 May 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasTrees, for example: we know what constitutes a tree and how it grows, what it looks like, how it feels, etc., yet if we ask ourselves what it is, we merely rehash what know about it without ever answering the fundamental question, what is it.
[b]I don't understand what you mean by Nescience.
Nescience refers to the fundamental limitation of rational scientific inquiry; the impossibility of science ever broaching the existential mystery. Science may one day accurately explain how the universe works, yet even then it will never tell us what the universe is. Many people ar ...[text shortened]... am James' quote concerning mystical experiences and their significance and limitations.[/b]
So, what is a tree? Or is that the point? I think I'm beginning to understand your argument... I must go back and reread your posts. It will take some time, so have patience with me 🙂
13 May 07
Originally posted by Zander 88"A tree" is a sound (or in this case, a pattern of pixels). In English we use it to refer to organisms with certain characteristics.
[b]Trees, for example: we know what constitutes a tree and how it grows, what it looks like, how it feels, etc., yet if we ask ourselves what it is, we merely rehash what know about it without ever answering the fundamental question, what is it.
So, what is a tree? Or is that the point? I think I'm beginning to understand your argument... I must go back and reread your posts. It will take some time, so have patience with me 🙂[/b]
14 May 07
Originally posted by Zander 88Good question. The numinous experience is definitely not the same as being born-again. I liken it to admiring God from afar.
Let us assume that this mystical experience exists. Why is this supernatural (also assuming this is a supernatural experience) entity a Christian God? How did you make the jump from experience into religious belief?
In my case, the numinous merely reinforced my own personal 'religion', which was at that time essentially communing with nature. Afterwards I became interested in authors, art, gurus, philosophies, anything that reminded me of the numinous, in a process of understanding and appreciating my newly found inspiration. I'd wall-gaze for hours and be completely engrossed (still do). After a year or so I discovered Pete Townsend's guru, Meher Baba, and got heavily involved in his teaching. I'd probably still be walking down that particular path if it wasn't for God's intervention, although it arrived in unexpected fashion. One morning I woke up with Bell's Palsy, which paralyzed the whole left side of my face. I was devastated. Those were dark times. God brought me to my knees. My uncle, a Christian, invited me out to Colorado to visit and have some one-on-one time. He took me to his church and afterwards I ridiculed it; getting seriously angry at him for believing that crap and expecting me to buy it, too. I can only describe the feeling I had as 'self-righteous indignation'. That night I had a dream I was being tormented by a dark presence, and I woke up several times with an almost overwhelming urge to jump in my car and drive back home in the middle of the night (I resented my uncle for being sold-out to God, and I felt abandoned). The next day the struggle continued. The constrictive, inner pain was horrendous. My uncle greeted me the next morning, saying, "Wow, you're still here!" I remember I sat there in my bed and cried unabashedly for an hour, completely broken. My uncle (later told me that he) just prayed for me in the next room. I tell you what, surrender is an ugly affair. Nobody goes willingly. It's a hard and bitter fight. We drove up into the foothills and sat out under the stars. There I asked what exactly I had to do to get saved. My uncle told me what to say, but the words just would not come out. The inner struggle I was experiencing became really intense right before I asked Jesus into my heart, but then afterwards immediately dissipated. For the first time in my life I knew the peace of God. That was August, 2001.
In conclusion, faith in Jesus Christ is entirely the work of the Holy Spirit. Faith is not achieved through striving, or convincing oneself; indeed, it is entirely impossible to arrive at faith by any natural means. I suppose plenty of people have experienced the numinous and have never (and never will) profess faith in Jesus Christ.
14 May 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasSo you are saying that God picks and chooses who he wants in heaven?
In conclusion, faith in Jesus Christ is entirely the work of the Holy Spirit. Faith is not achieved through striving, or convincing oneself; indeed, it is entirely impossible to arrive at faith by any natural means. I suppose plenty of people have experienced the numinous and have never (and never will) profess faith in Jesus Christ.
15 May 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasIn conclusion, faith in Jesus Christ is entirely the work of the Holy Spirit. Faith is not achieved through striving, or convincing oneself; indeed, it is entirely impossible to arrive at faith by any natural means.
Good question. The numinous experience is definitely not the same as being born-again. I liken it to admiring God from afar.
In my case, the numinous merely reinforced my own personal 'religion', which was at that time essentially communing with nature. Afterwards I became interested in authors, art, gurus, philosophies, anything that remind ...[text shortened]... ienced the numinous and have never (and never will) profess faith in Jesus Christ.
I used to think that—being raised Lutheran. And I still do not think that grace can be transactional.
However, what you describe (brave thing that!) did entail a decision on your part—a decision involving metanoia (though I do not think that metanoia, one of those words I refuse to translate, is no more than a decision; nor does the numinous experience itself entail metanoia)—whether or not that decision involved any conscious intellectual process. That decision I would call an act of faith.
Faith—in the NT sense—I define, roughly, as either a decision or an attitude of confidence/trust/assurance (pistis) in the face of uncertainty; perhaps an existential attitude. This is analogous (to use a crude, non-religious analogy) to the “faith” that an athlete adopts when faced with an uncertain play under difficult circumstances; the greater confidence with which they act, the greater the chances of making the play.
Since then, you have maintained that faith. I am not at all saying that grace does not play a part in that. I am saying that I think it is available to all (again! 😉 ).
People in other religions have similar faith—though not the same beliefs. They have also told similar stories. I have known AA people who have stayed sober and sane for years based on their continuing faith in a “higher power.” I would no more denigrate their faith than I would yours (and I hope I have not). Whether or not you view such faith as “salvific” is another question.
“Belief” was a perfectly adequate translation of pistis originally. But belief has also come to mean what one thinks, or an opinion, or assent to a proposition. They are not unrelated, but one can hold a belief with varying degrees of confidence/faith. And that can cause some confusion in discussion.
15 May 07
Originally posted by vistesdFor the sake of appreciating the mystery of 'faith' consider these excerpts:
In conclusion, faith in Jesus Christ is entirely the work of the Holy Spirit. Faith is not achieved through striving, or convincing oneself; indeed, it is entirely impossible to arrive at faith by any natural means.
I used to think that—being raised Lutheran. And I still do not think that grace can be transactional.
However, what you describe (brave t ...[text shortened]... lief with varying degrees of confidence/faith. And that can cause some confusion in discussion.
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"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up" (John 6:44).
"That your faith may not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God" (1 Corinthians 2:5).
"Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ" (Galatians 3:2).
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith" (Galatians 5:22).
"By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).
"Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience" (1 Timothy 3:9).
"I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith" (2 Timothy 4:7).
"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering" (Hebrews 10:23).
"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him" (Hebrews 10:38).
"Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2).
"Kept by the power of God through faith" (1 Peter 1:5).
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Revelation 17:14).
"For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).
"We have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith" (Romans 1:5).
"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:5).
"God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:2).
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The mystery involved is manifold: no one comes to the Son unless the Father first draws him, the Holy Spirit produces faith, faith which is a gift from God, yet faith is also something one needs to actively keep, without wavering, without drawing back; nevertheless such obedience is also the result of God's grace. God gives the power to obey, yet the ultimate decision to obey remains shrouded in mystery: "No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit" (1 Corinthians 2:11). Therefore, it can be said that faith in Jesus Christ is both arrived at voluntarily and involuntarily (thus, the mystery). Many are called, yet only those who remain faithful are chosen. It's accurate to claim that God chooses those who receive His kingdom, yet also accurate to say we receive God's kingdom through a volitional act of faith. We're both right, I guess.
15 May 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasYes, the mystery tends to defy our attempts at definition. The Orthodox call that two-fold aspect you describe “synergy.”
For the sake of appreciating the mystery of 'faith' consider these excerpts:
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"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up" (John 6:44).
"That your faith may not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God ...[text shortened]... h a volitional act of faith. We're both right, I guess.
15 May 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasI cannot share your views. In your story, you were in an extremely stressful and emotional situation. In those cases, it is expected that most people will desperately search for any help, any meaning they can find. When the external world crashes down on them, they look inside for help. Religion is a very appealing remedy. If you lived in the middle east, guess what? I bet you would be Islamic!
Good question. The numinous experience is definitely not the same as being born-again. I liken it to admiring God from afar.
In my case, the numinous merely reinforced my own personal 'religion', which was at that time essentially communing with nature. Afterwards I became interested in authors, art, gurus, philosophies, anything that remind ...[text shortened]... ienced the numinous and have never (and never will) profess faith in Jesus Christ.
I believe religion is superficial. It's the love and compassion that counts. That's why I don't believe in any religion.
16 May 07
Originally posted by Zander 88Guess what? I don't believe in any religion either. I believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ Himself is not a religion, He is a person. Yes, people have made 'Christianity' into a religion, but that institution is a foreign entity to the Truth.
I cannot share your views. In your story, you were in an extremely stressful and emotional situation. In those cases, it is expected that most people will desperately search for any help, any meaning they can find. When the external world crashes down on them, they look inside for help. Religion is a very appealing remedy. If you lived in the middle east, ...[text shortened]... ficial. It's the love and compassion that counts. That's why I don't believe in any religion.
I realize the state I was in before being saved was extremely tenuous. And that is the case for countless people who are saved, not everyone, but more often than not. Oftentimes the Lord has to bring people to their knees before they will genuinely seek Him. That was true in my case.
"Listen to me, dear brothers and sisters. Hasn’t God chosen the poor in this world to be rich in faith? Aren’t they the ones who will inherit the Kingdom he promised to those who love him?" (James 2:5).
I suppose if I lived in the Middle East I might be Islamic, sure. I might also be Christian, too. There are many Christians in the Middle East. Who knows?
The bottom line is, repentance and being born-again is quite a different process of metanoia than the numinous experience.
16 May 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasThat leads to the fundamental problem of being incapable of knowing who Jesus is due to remote location. This is outside this thread so I'm not going to push it here. I invite you, if you are bold enough 😉, to check out the "What happens...." thread I made. I made a new post that I believe does a good job of presenting the dilemma. Thanks for the discussion here.
Guess what? I don't believe in any religion either. I believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ Himself is not a religion, He is a person. Yes, people have made 'Christianity' into a religion, but that institution is a foreign entity to the Truth.
I realize the state I was in before being saved was extremely tenuous. And that is the case for countles ...[text shortened]... ng born-again is quite a different process of metanoia than the numinous experience.