Atheist, agnostic, believer

Originally posted by JS357
A lot of these quotes fail to capture the nuances that a discussion with the person would bring out. For example, there is talk here of non-zero probability, but any non-zero probability presupposes possibility. Is any old formulation of God supposed to be accepted as referring to a possible God? There may be as many formulations of God as there are people for ...[text shortened]... alled metaphorical, etc. So I think this clip from Dawkins needs to be viewed with that in mind.

I see what you're saying. When anyone ever asks me if i believe in God, always ask them - 'define your 'God' first.'

As for the Dawkins text, it's from the The God Delusion, he goes into a little more detail in the book.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I see what you're saying. When anyone ever asks me if i believe in God, always ask them - 'define your 'God' first.'

As for the Dawkins text, it's from the The God Delusion, he goes into a little more detail in the book.

My God is the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob spoken of
in the Holy Bible. You know, the God that created the heavens
and the earth, with its plants and animals. The God that
created the first humans to live on the earth. Do you believe
that there is such a God? If not, why not?

Originally posted by buckky
Is the atheist saying he knows for a fact that God does not exist ? The agnostic leaves the door open for what ever truth might be. The believer claims to know for sure what truth is. It seems the agnostic has the most rational stance.

Another way to look at it is, the atheist and believer have a 50/50 shot at the truth, however, the agnostic has no chance at realizing the truth.

Edit: Do you know what the difference between an agnostic and an atheist is? An agnostic is an athiest without any gonads. 😵

Originally posted by whodey
Another way to look at it is, the atheist and believer have a 50/50 shot at the truth, however, the agnostic has no chance at realizing the truth.

Edit: Do you know what the difference between an agnostic and an atheist is? An agnostic is an athiest without any gonads. 😵

Or, an agnostic is a believer without any gonads. And maybe the agnostic has a hundred percent chance at arriving at the truth. Maybe he already has the truth as much as a mortal can have it - the recognition that at the mortal level it is not susceptible to understanding.

Originally posted by Kunsoo
Or, an agnostic is a believer without any gonads. And maybe the agnostic has a hundred percent chance at arriving at the truth. Maybe he already has the truth as much as a mortal can have it - the recognition that at the mortal level it is not susceptible to understanding.

Whatever it is he doesn't have he need to get before his time runs out.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Whatever it is he doesn't have he need to get before his time runs out.

I still don't get why you think 'he' has a need to choose between two unprovable positions. I can only speak for me, but I don't feel any such urge. Why do you think I should?

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I still don't get why you think 'he' has a need to choose between two unprovable positions. I can only speak for me, but I don't feel any such urge. Why do you think I should?

If the Holy Bible is true then it says to choose life.
I believe it is too late to choose after one dies and
no one can be sure when that will happen. So it
really doesn't make any difference, if either position
can not be proven false. You feel no urge to make
a choice because you either believe the Holy Bible is
not true or that you have plenty of time, I suppose.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You feel no urge to make
a choice because you either believe the Holy Bible is
not true or that you have plenty of time, I suppose.

But surely once you believe the Bible is true, there really is no choice. So your comments about people who don't believe it needing to make a choice don't really make sense.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But surely once you believe the Bible is true, there really is no choice. So your comments about people who don't believe it needing to make a choice don't really make sense.

I was mainly referring to the agnostics since the atheists seems to
have already made their choice. However it is always possible for
the atheists to change their minds and start believing before they
die.

Originally posted by RJHinds
If the Holy Bible is true then it says to choose life.
I believe it is too late to choose after one dies and
no one can be sure when that will happen. So it
really doesn't make any difference, if either position
can not be proven false. You feel no urge to make
a choice because you either believe the Holy Bible is
not true or that you have plenty of time, I suppose.

Oh I'm pretty confident that the 'Holy Bible' isn't wholly true. Which is not to denigrate those who choose to believe differently - my confidence is based on my knowledge and experiences, as, of course, is your faith. The way I see it, if the bible is in fact the literal word of God, then given the option I would always choose to have my essence obliterated on my death rather than the alternative.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I was mainly referring to the agnostics since the atheists seems to
have already made their choice. However it is always possible for
the atheists to change their minds and start believing before they
die.

I've read a lot of your posting recently and, apart from your complete abuse of atheists, you also have a complete misunderstanding of what one is.

There are atheists who don't believe in God, but haven't rejected the idea, and yet if asked say 'No I don't believe in God'. That doesn't mean a total rejection.

There are atheists, as you define them in your 'one way street' of belief, who simply await proof of a God - and that is not unreasonable in the 'logical' man.

If you think you are logical to accept the writings in a single book as 'Gospel' and all truth then I pity you, considering you ignore half of the writings when it doesn't suit you. Would that make you half christian/half atheist, or just a liar?

So before you continue to be so abusively putting down atheists - get your facts right. For such a christian, or whatever you determine yourself as, you are mightily condescending and arrogant to others!

I await your abusive response, representing your religion in its domain and faculty of how you portray it.

-m.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Oh I'm pretty confident that the 'Holy Bible' isn't wholly true. Which is not to denigrate those who choose to believe differently - my confidence is based on my knowledge and experiences, as, of course, is your faith. The way I see it, if the bible is in fact the literal word of God, then given the option I would always choose to have my essence obliterated on my death rather than the alternative.

You should be concerned even if part of it is true, especially that part about
the eternal torment. For example Luke16:19-31 where Jesus teaches saying,
"Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and
fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named
Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with
the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the
dogs were coming and licking the sores. Now it came about that the poor
man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and
the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes,
being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send
Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue;
for I am in agony in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that
during you life you received good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things;
but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all
this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those
who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none
cross over from there to us.' And He said, 'Then I beg you, Father, that you
send him to my father's house--for I have five brothers--that he may warn
them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' But Abraham said, "They
have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' But he said, 'No, Father
Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither
will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'"

Suppose this story is not wholly true, but Jesus told it to illustrate a truth.
Isn't it something that should concern you? Maybe your body can be
obliterated, but maybe there is some part of you, like a spirit, that must
face judgment. Do you know for sure this is not true?

Originally posted by RJHinds
You should be concerned even if part of it is true, especially that part about
the eternal torment. For example Luke16:19-31 where Jesus teaches saying,
"Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and
fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named
Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, ...[text shortened]... ke a spirit, that must
face judgment. Do you know for sure this is not true?

No, I am entirely unconcerned with the threats made by the various authors of the scripture collected in the bible. Of course I don't know for sure whether I might at some point become subject to some sort of divine judgement (neither do I believe does or did anybody else, Jesus included) but regardless, this eventuality holds no fear for me.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You should be concerned even if part of it is true, especially that part about
the eternal torment. For example Luke16:19-31 where Jesus teaches saying,
"Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and
fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named
Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, ...[text shortened]... ke a spirit, that must
face judgment. Do you know for sure this is not true?

Illustrated truths:

If you are uncharitable, you will not be treated charitably.

If you depend on miracles to save your brethren from danger, it will be in vain.

Both are good advice for living in the world of that time and today, and fully satisfactory as the only intended messages.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You should be concerned even if part of it is true, especially that part about
the eternal torment. For example Luke16:19-31 where Jesus teaches saying,
"Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and
fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named
Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, ...[text shortened]... ke a spirit, that must
face judgment. Do you know for sure this is not true?

It seems that Abraham is right.