25 Jun 07
If agnosticism is defined in terms of “Pyrrhonic” skepticism (ala Sextus Empiricus), it would be an intellectually valid position when arguments for and against are seen as equipollent, making it reasonable to suspend judgment. “I don’t know” is an intellectually honest answer.
Different folks will, of course, under any given definition of G, argue about the merit of such arguments.
Pragmatically, such a “Sextian” agnostic would likely conduct their lives in the same way as a weak atheist—i.e., as if ~G.
25 Jun 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneNo, all four are tenable in terms of something which is knowable in a factual manner. However, that's not what we're talking about, we're actually discussing an opinion. And a person may say "we can never know", but they actually either hold sway on either "I believe" or "I don't believe".
So you only see the first two as valid positions:
X is true
X is not true
X is unknown
X is unknowable
That's an interesting perspective you have there.
25 Jun 07
Originally posted by vistesdSo what is the difference between how a weak atheist and a weak
If agnosticism is defined in terms of “Pyrrhonic” skepticism (ala Sextus Empiricus), it would be an intellectually valid position when arguments for and against are seen as equipollent, making it reasonable to suspend judgment. “I don’t know” is an intellectually honest answer.
Different folks will, of course, under any given definition of G, argue about ...[text shortened]... ian” agnostic would likely conduct their lives in the same way as a weak atheist—i.e., as if ~G.
theist if you can have one or the other in terms of how they act?
Kelly
25 Jun 07
Originally posted by KellyJayI never heard the phrase “weak theist.” I am imagining that that would be someone who chooses to believe in a god simply because there is no sufficient evidence for there being no god (small “g” for generality)? That would seem to mean—contra rwingett—that people are born as implicit theists?
So what is the difference between how a weak atheist and a weak
theist if you can have one or the other in terms of how they act?
Kelly
Or do you mean that a skeptic/agnostic such as I described might choose to live as if there were god(s). Sextus, I think, allowed for such skeptics to engage in religious rituals and practices for pragmatic reasons—social, aesthetic, etc.—but that would still be absent any belief commitment at all.
This kind of skeptic does not say, “I doubt that G”—he says, “It can be argued either way sufficiently that I suspend judgment.” In terms of belief about philosophical and religious questions, the “Sextian” skeptic lives in a mode of continuing inquiry.
25 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by scottishinnzNice try. So you're saying that "I don't know" is not a valid position for anything that is not knowable in a factual manner? You might want to rethink this.
No, all four are tenable in terms of something which is knowable in a factual manner. However, that's not what we're talking about, we're actually discussing an opinion. And a person may say "we can never know", but they actually either hold sway on either "I believe" or "I don't believe".
25 Jun 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhy only "nice try"?
Nice try.
The theist no more "knows" that God exists than the atheist "knows" he doesn't. It's belief, not factual knowledge. I know my kitchen sink exists. I don't need to believe in it. I can go up and look at it and touch it, I can feel the cold metal.
No-one can do that with God. He's undetectable.
All we are left with is belief. Belief cannot be "don't know", you either believe, or you don't.
25 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by scottishinnzMostly because I was at a loss for words 🙂 If anything is untenable, it's your position on this.
Why only "nice try"?
The theist no more "knows" that God exists than the atheist "knows" he doesn't. It's belief, not factual knowledge. I know my kitchen sink exists. I don't need to believe in it. I can go up and look at it and touch it, I can feel the cold metal.
No-one can do that with God. He's undetectable.
All we are left with is belief. Belief cannot be "don't know", you either believe, or you don't.
Sorry, but it's my belief that this is unknowable.
25 Jun 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneUnKNOWable, yes.
Mostly because I was at a loss for words 🙂 If anything is untenable, it's your position on this.
Sorry, but it's my belief that this is unknowable.
Unbelieveable? I'd say "yes" to that too. I suspect your position would be different to mine.
25 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneG or ~G. If one honestly says the answer is unknowable, one is still going to live as if either G or ~G.
Nice try. So you're saying that "I don't know" is not a valid position for anything that is not knowable in a factual manner? You might want to rethink this.
To use rwingett’s phrases: if one finds the arguments both for and against G to be insufficient, relative to one another, to make an explicit intellectual decision, one might honestly say, “I don’t know.” Explicitly they are an agnostic/skeptic. Implicitly, however, they will act as if either G or ~G. They will either pray to a god, or they won’t; they will act out of the possibility for an individual after-life, or they won’t; etc., etc.
Intellectually, I think there are conditions under which the claim of agnosticism (“I don’t know” ) can be a valid one. Pragmatically, either theism or atheism “holds sway” (as Scotty put it) in how they live their lives.
EDIT: Saw Scotty's post re knowing versus believing. As an assent to a proposition (either G or ~G) I think we're saying pretty much the same thing. One de facto either chooses to believe or not believe, in the case of an unknowable. That is, by how I live my life, I am either assenting to the proposition G, or I am not.
25 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by scottishinnzYou're right. It is different than yours. It's like the following.
UnKNOWable, yes.
Unbelieveable? I'd say "yes" to that too. I suspect your position would be different to mine.
agnostic [noun] someone who does not know, or believes that it is impossible to know, whether a god exists.
Think OUTSIDE the box 🙂
25 Jun 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzI don't believe that that's true either. People believe what they believe.
By that definition, everyone is an agnostic, there are no other positions.
Some believe that God exists.
Some believe that God doesn't exist.
Some don't know if God exists.
Some believe that the existence of God is unknowable.
Go figure.
25 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneNow you are coming back to belief again!
I don't believe that that's true either. People believe what they believe.
Some believe that God exists.
Some believe that God doesn't exist.
Some don't know if God exists.
Some believe that the existence of God is unknowable.
Go figure.
Belief and factual knowledge are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!
[edit; the definition talked of factual knowledge, not belief.]