Originally posted by NemesioSo would you say that a Christian who spends his day in prayer asking for forgiveness for his sins may in fact be sinning by doing so as it would be morally better if he spent the day giving away his possessions and joining thePeace Corps?
Consequently, I'm of the opinion that I am perpetually in sin and, while I
live a reasonably moral life (I think), I see no way to avoid it short of
giving all my possessions away and working in the Peace Corps.
Nemesio
On a side note, giving away your possessions is only a good thing if you make a wise choice about who you give those possessions to. It is my firm belief that the vast majority of poor people need education far more than they need money or goods. Even the wealthier citizens of this world, could benefit from education. So if you ever really feel like doing something good, concentrate on education and you will probably be doing the most good.
Originally posted by twhitehead
So would you say that a Christian who spends his day in prayer asking for forgiveness for his sins may in fact be sinning by doing so as it would be morally better if he spent the day giving away his possessions and joining thePeace Corps?
I'm of the opinion that people who spend their day in (intercessory) prayer rather than engaging
the needs of the community are ignoring Jesus. I've no objection to prayer in and of itself, but
prayer in the absence possible action is indeed sin. That is, the 90-year old, blind paraplegic
can't build houses for those in need, so prayer might be all s/he is able to do. The person who
is incarcerated by a corrupt government or police state and is thus unable to tend to the needs
of his/her community is similarly held to a different standard.
On a side note, giving away your possessions is only a good thing if you make a wise choice about who you give those possessions to. It is my firm belief that the vast majority of poor people need education far more than they need money or goods. Even the wealthier citizens of this world, could benefit from education. So if you ever really feel like doing something good, concentrate on education and you will probably be doing the most good.
I figured my disposition would make this sort of qualification obvious -- I'm certainly a 'teach-a-
man-to-fish' type of person. However, I remain reasonably confident that, by omission, I'm
condemning, in part, to the suffering of other people whom I don't know. I'm not sure what
reasonable and responsible options I have (or anyone else in my position) -- obviously I have
a duty to myself, to my wife and child, and my community. But I'm unconvinced that my
duty ends there.
Nemesio
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Originally posted by NemesioSo the monastic tradition is nothing but selfishness?
Originally posted by twhitehead
[b]So would you say that a Christian who spends his day in prayer asking for forgiveness for his sins may in fact be sinning by doing so as it would be morally better if he spent the day giving away his possessions and joining thePeace Corps?
I'm of the opinion that people who spend their day in (intercessory) p ...[text shortened]... and child, and my community. But I'm unconvinced that my
duty ends there.
Nemesio[/b]
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Originally posted by Rajk999The total renunciation of personal pleasures in place of an ascetic lifestyle, with hours of silence, prayer, study and liturgy. Nemesio may think that misguided, but it is completely selfless and hardly sinful.
What would you say is selfless about it?
Having said that, a number of monastic orders do charity. Some Cistercian orders run universities or work farms (of which profits can be given to the poor); others offer retreats. I live near a Carmelite convent in which the nuns make perfumes. There are few monastic orders which do no work at all. But even so, these monastics may think that the only way that they personally can follow God is away from the world (they might be 'tempted' by the outside world) or they may not have the ability to do apostolic work that other religious might do. A monastery offers a place where they can live as Christians.
And there are benefits of having monasteries. Their spiritual insights may help other Christians. For example, Thomas Merton. They can also be a refuge for ordinary people who are stressed out and need some silence in their lives for a while. Some Benedictines allow laypeople to live with them. I am told it can be therapeutic. But even if there was none of that, I still think that there is nothing sinful or selfish about that lifestyle. It is a weird thing to say.
Originally posted by Conrau KSelfessness is really the act to doing for others, not self. So I would guess that "...hours of silence, prayer, study and liturgy" does not constitute selflessness, although I probably wont refer to it as sinful.
The total renunciation of personal pleasures in place of an ascetic lifestyle, with hours of silence, prayer, study and liturgy. Nemesio may think that misguided, but it is completely selfless and hardly sinful.
Having said that, a number of monastic orders do charity. Some Cistercian orders run universities or work farms (of which profits can be given t ...[text shortened]... hink that there is nothing sinful or selfish about that lifestyle. It is a weird thing to say.
Charity is a selfless act but staying in a monastery (long term) for your own personal well-being is in fact selfish. Again I am not commenting on whether or not it is a sin but it certainly is not selfless as it does not constitute helping another person.
Christ is the judge of who sins but I would think that He expects us to give of ourselves and our resources to the benefit of others. I am not too sure people understand what that means.
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Originally posted by Rajk999Charity is a selfless act but staying in a monastery (long term) for your own personal well-being is in fact selfish. Again I am not commenting on whether or not it is a sin but it certainly is not selfless as it does not constitute helping another person.
Selfessness is really the act to doing for others, not self. So I would guess that "...hours of silence, prayer, study and liturgy" does not constitute selflessness, although I probably wont refer to it as sinful.
Charity is a selfless act but staying in a monastery (long term) for your own personal well-being is in fact selfish. Again I am not commenting ...[text shortened]... d our resources to the benefit of others. I am not too sure people understand what that means.
Are we talking about those monasteries which solely engage in prayer? Or does you include those monasteries which also work, farm, produce crafts or run retreats? If the former, then there would be very few. I would guess less than a thousand men and women, from the Camaldolese and Carthusian monasteries. But even then, I disagree that their lives are selfish. Even though their lives are hermetic, they live in a community to help each other in their prayer lives, to celebrate Mass together and to teach one another. They are helping each other. It is a very self-abdicating act.
Originally posted by Conrau KI think it's entirely selfish, but that's because my hermeneutic disbelieves in the power of
The total renunciation of personal pleasures in place of an ascetic lifestyle, with hours of silence, prayer, study and liturgy. Nemesio may think that misguided, but it is completely selfless and hardly sinful.
intercessory prayer and the accompanying explanations how two-year olds who get cancer are
part of God's Great Plan.
Asceticism by its very nature is removing one's self from the world and consequently subtracting
one's self from the possible solution to that world's problems. Jesus didn't say to pray that
someone gets food, drink or clothing; He said 'Give it to them.'
I have no objection to silence, prayer, study and especially liturgy. But I believe that if those
things don't yield to feeding, slaking, clothing, and housing those in need, then they are an
utter waste of time. And given that Jesus assaulted the Pharisees for roughly the same thing,
I think He both did and would agree with me.
Nemesio