11 Aug 08
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Originally posted by LemonJelloWell that is the difference between believing there is a God and not believing there is a God. It is the difference between believing your life has purpose or believing that you are a result of random chance without purpose.
[b]Of course everything has a reason.
Really? What do you mean in the context of the current thread? Do you mean what I said above that even something like this happens for some "greater purpose"; or do you just mean that there is some causal explanation for what happened? If the latter, then I doubt that in itself will be much consolation. If the former, then what is the "greater purpose" for which little Hermione died?[/b]
Having said that, you could then say that if you believe God exists and is in control of such events then He must have a reason for "bad" things happening. However, that is not how I see it. I believe in free will, hence, God is not in direct control of our actions even though he is in control overall. Therefore, you might say that he is in control indirectly of such events.
In fact, there is a biblical passage that says that God works together for good in ALL situations for those that love him and are called according to their purpose. It is an attitude that God may not be the cause of our suffering but is in control of turning that situation around for our ultimate good.
11 Aug 08
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Originally posted by yo its meI have just come from unveiling the memorial plaque on my son's grave. He died a year ago today at age 25.
My friend has been robbed of every little part of parenthood from a glow in pregnancy to breastfeeding and skin to skin hugging. No parent expects to have to out live their child. I can think of nothing worse. ... I've never felt pain like this before.
My wife, daughter and I know that of which you speak and we face it every day. I am sorry for your loss and the pain and grief that comes with it.
I can offer you no explanations. But from my experience and that of many others with and from whom I have sought comfort and counsel, let me advise you and your friend to find a support group right away. Find one composed of people who have had an experience like yours and hers.
I recommend that you read "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl. It will not at first, of course, take any pain from you. Grief is a process and you need to work your way through it. Understanding it through the help one gets in a support group is one way to deal gently with the terrible darkness that looms before you and for which you seek an explanation.
Life can seem not only cruel, cold, indifferent, chaotic and malicious, but it can also seem absurd -- devoid of any meaning at all.
Be assured that neither I nor anyone outside of yourself can tell you or give you the meaning of life in the face of such terrible grief and suffering. No teaching, no words, no belief can do this for you.
Resist the temptation to yield to the natural anger at the unfairness, the cruelty, the seeming indifference of a chaotic, formless universe that could allow this child to die and for you and the baby's mother to suffer so. Resist the smug acceptance by others using cliches and their own beliefs, for they cannot know your heart unless they, too, have been in your place.
It is true that neither you, nor I, nor anyone control our lives or life itself. That is so very hard to accept that we tend to take refuge in belief systems -- and these systems always fail us, merely rationalizing things like this child's death that have no explanation, no purpose, no apparent meaning.
If you read Frankl, you will see that there is one and only one thing over which we do have control in life: our attitude towards it.
You ask for explanations. That is like expecting something from life -- and it isn't going to be granted you, my friend. Rather, turn this question around: ask yourself what does life expect of you?
Even in the face of the most severe suffering, and I would say the mother of this child now faces the worst pain she may ever face in her life, one still retains the choice to find a purpose and meaning for one's life.
Note that I said one has a choice. You can try to put the burden of this loss and this pain on someone else, but they will let you down.
You can try to fit the burden inside the words on a page and have some teacher or preacher tell you how faith in the words can make this burden easier to carry, and yet does the burden weigh any less upon you?
You can choose to look life and loss and its grief in the face, and leave the darkness behind, carrying only the light of your loved one with you. This only you can do. Would you choose not to have had this life exist at all? Or is it not better that at least for some days she was here and you remember her?
I am glad for the time I had with my son. I miss him terribly and I still grieve. But I take seriously my responsibility personally to find meaning and imbue my life with purpose, for I will not accept the idea that my life or that of my son is absurd. That is something entirely up to me.
It takes time and the comfort and friendship and love of many people to work through the process of grief and gain the strength needed to face the reality of life and loss and to give it meaning through your own choosing.
Give yourself that time. Seek out help and comfort from people who understand what you are feeling because they, too, have lost a child.
Do not listen to glib, easy, cliche filled nonsense by people who do not know your pain, do not understand how you feel, for their words are hollow and you gain nothing by them.
Read Frankl and learn how you may find your own way.
Frankl concludes that the meaning of life is found in every moment of living; life never ceases to have meaning, even in suffering and death.
Some quotes from the book:
* "We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
* "Nietzsche's words, 'He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how.'"
* "When we are no longer able to change a situation—just think of an incurable disease such as inoperable cancer—we are challenged to change ourselves"
* "Fundamentally, therefore, any man can, even under such circumstances, decide what shall become of him - mentally and spiritually. He may retain his human dignity even in a concentration camp."
* "We can discover this meaning in life in three different ways: (1) by creating a work or doing a deed; (2) by experiencing something or encountering someone; and (3) by the attitude we take toward unavoidable suffering."
* "It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life, and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life—daily and hourly. Our answer must consist, not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual."
* "Man is capable of changing the world for the better if possible, and of changing himself for the better if necessary."
* "Set me like a seal upon thy heart, love is as strong as death." (Cf. Song of Solomon 8:6)
* "We have come to know man as he really is. After all, man is that being who invented the gas chambers of Auschwitz; however, he is also that being who entered those gas chambers upright, with the Lord's prayer or the Shema Yisrael on his lips."
* "A man who for years had thought he had reached the absolute limit of all possible suffering now found that suffering had no limits, and that he could suffer still more, and more intensely."
* "Woe to him, when the day of his dreams finally came, found it to be so different from all that he had longed for!"
* "We were not hoping for happiness---And yet we were not prepared for unhappiness."
* "Live as if you were living already for the second time and as if you had acted the first time as wrongly as you are about to act now!"
11 Aug 08
Originally posted by yo its melikely nothing is mentioned because it was a normal occurance for them as well. They had a very high infant mortality rate, and it was considered normal and mundane
That's nice that it's worked out well for them. We are all hopping, and those that do, praying that my freinds baby will be. I've heard lots of possitive stories about premature babies.
I see mums smoke throughout their pregnancys and have fullterm healthy babies (and I don't begrudge them at all) I just wonder why? Why when my freind did everything she ...[text shortened]... n blind so that Jesus could heal him, but I haven't found anything about premature babies.
12 Aug 08
Originally posted by ScriabinThat is a beautiful post, Scriabin. Beautiful, moving and true. Though it was not addressed to me, but to the opening poster, I thank you for it.
I have just come from unveiling the memorial plaque on my son's grave. He died a year ago today at age 25.
My wife, daughter and I know that of which you speak and we face it every day. I am sorry for your loss and the pain and grief that comes with it.
I can offer you no explanations. But from my experience and that of many others with and from whom ...[text shortened]... the first time as wrongly as you are about to act now!"
12 Aug 08
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I would like to thank everyone for their posts.
Scairbin I'm sorry for your loss I did read your post in debates a while ago where you said what happened. I have tried sending my freind surport group contacts but she's not answering her mail. I think she just wants to be alone with her husband.
Deucer I think it shouldn't ever be considered ordinary or mundane to lose a child. Perhaps it's easier to except if it was happenening all the time to all around you, but as Rajk999 has mentioned it's not so common now. Becasuse of the nature of SMA Hermione would seam perfectly well (except for the tubes helping her breathe and eat) she was pink and warm and happy at times. Even though she felt such pain she was so brave and took it all in her stride. She couldn't fill her lungs with air so tears fell from her eyes with out any sound. All childern are special and Hermione wasn't an exception. I'm sure God is upset everytime a baby dies.
LemonJello I do care a lot for my freind and her husband. She is my best freind and a baby is all she wanted for so long. The doctors told them that with this strain babies usually only see 3/4 months but that Hermione saw 7 months 10 days becasue of their love and determination. That's what kind of people they are.
I don't think that everything happens for a reson in a higher purpose way either and maybe you're right there is nothing to understand.
Rajk999 ”Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Luke 11 NIV)
I guess anyone can cut and paste from the bible, but to set the context I had just spent a week at a Christian holiday listening to wonderous things that God had done in answer to prayer. I hopped, as did all Hermiones family and freinds of, that there would be a miricale. Having said that, when I was praying I had a feeling that I should kneel down to ask God, and I didn't. Also I felt that if I worshiped Him then He would see my heart and know how desprately I wanted Hermione to be healed but I held back.
Whodey "God works together for good in ALL situations for those that love him and are called according to their purpose" Wasn't it my freinds purpose to be Hermiones parents?
Black Beetle, thank you. My husband is very surportive. I have my childern home for the summer holidays and they are laughing and playing, arguing and being themselves and it's a juckstpopsition of emotions feeling this sadness and enjoying their company.
12 Aug 08
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Originally posted by whodeyWell that is the difference between believing there is a God and not believing there is a God. It is the difference between believing your life has purpose or believing that you are a result of random chance without purpose.
Well that is the difference between believing there is a God and not believing there is a God. It is the difference between believing your life has purpose or believing that you are a result of random chance without purpose.
Having said that, you could then say that if you believe God exists and is in control of such events then He must have a reason for use of our suffering but is in control of turning that situation around for our ultimate good.
Goo. 🙄
believe in free will, hence, God is not in direct control of our actions even though he is in control overall. Therefore, you might say that he is in control indirectly of such events.
WTF are you talking about? I was asking about Hermione's suffering and death. I wasn't asking about anything related in any genuine way with a discussion on free will.
In fact, there is a biblical passage that says that God works together for good in ALL situations for those that love him and are called according to their purpose. It is an attitude that God may not be the cause of our suffering but is in control of turning that situation around for our ultimate good.
Well, then, what is the greater or "ultimate" good for which Hermione suffered and died? What was Hermione's purpose in God's plan? I thought I already basically asked that in my previous post.
And, even supposing that some good things in the end do come from very difficult experiences such as Hermione's suffering and death, why should we think such experiences are necessary to bring about such goods?
12 Aug 08
Originally posted by ScriabinNice post. You are actually capable of being nice. Good for you.
I have just come from unveiling the memorial plaque on my son's grave. He died a year ago today at age 25.
My wife, daughter and I know that of which you speak and we face it every day. I am sorry for your loss and the pain and grief that comes with it.
I can offer you no explanations. But from my experience and that of many others with and from whom ...[text shortened]... the first time as wrongly as you are about to act now!"
12 Aug 08
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Originally posted by yo its mePrayer is a very confusing issue. If you look at the whole story about prayer and not just what Luke said, you might conclude that God only answers the prayers of those people who are faithful to Him and He ignores the rest of the world. I can dig up the verses if you like. And even the faithful cannot get all their prayers answered.
....Rajk999 ”Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Luke 11 NIV)
I guess anyone can cut and e would see my heart and know how desprately I wanted Hermione to be healed but I held back....
A good eg is David who prayed and grovelled and wept and fasted for days but God did not change His mind. The child died. There is a larger purpose and a long term view to life that we cannot see or appreciate. The hard fact of the matter is that we have to accept what happens and move on as best we can.
My own personal experience with prayer is quite the opposite of many Christians on this site. I am now 52 and as a teenager I figured out that money makes nobody happy so I always prayed for wisdom, a happy marriage and lots of kids. I never got any of that. My marriage was a disaster and I have one daughter (thank God for that), everyone on this site can confirm that I am not wise. I never prayed for money or success in my career, but I got more than my share of that. So after about 30 years I am convinced that my prayers dont work, but I still pray.
The point is we cant simply reach out to God only when life takes a turn for the worse, or stop praying when we think our prayers are not answered.
12 Aug 08
Originally posted by Rajk999Yes, you're right. Thank you for your post. I don't understand how God works or why he blesses certian people in certian ways. But I know he's real, so I have to trust that he knows what he's doing, like you say.
Prayer is a very confusing issue. If you look at the whole story about prayer and not just what Luke said, you might conclude that God only answers the prayers of those people who are faithful to Him and He ignores the rest of the world. I can dig up the verses if you like. And even the faithful cannot get all their prayers answered.
A good eg is David wh ...[text shortened]... hen life takes a turn for the worse, or stop praying when we think our prayers are not answered.
I have been blessed with four childern, no doubt about that and I thank God they are all healthy and happy.
15 Aug 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydSay, here's a thought. Why don't you go read some Nietzsche and then maybe you can post something of actual substance regarding his work. That way, we may have reasons to take you seriously.
I noticed that the Frankl post quoted Nietzsche--if this is the same Nietzsche that declared God is dead in 1891, I'd be careful taking anything he wrote too seriously.
16 Aug 08
Originally posted by LemonJelloAlready done--I had to read the guy in college. I wasn't impressed, and I found his writings to be trite.
Say, here's a thought. Why don't you go read some Nietzsche and then maybe you can post something of actual substance regarding his work. That way, we may have reasons to take you seriously.