09 Nov 20
@divegeester said"Foreknowledge is knowing who will be saved". Of course.
Foreknowledge is knowing who will be saved
Predestination is deciding who will be saved.
"Predestination is deciding who will be saved". False.
Read the verse. "For whom he did foreknow,(those that would believe) he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,(what the believer would become)that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (embolden mine)
To predestinate has nothing to do with deciding, or choosing, who would be saved. It has to do with what the believer is saved to.
If God had chosen who would be saved and lost, then why does Paul say in 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
It is God's will that all men be saved. For one to think that God chose some to be saved and the rest lost is a direct contradiction and an obvious misinterpretation.
God foreknew who would be saved and who would be lost, and both groups are "predestinated." That interpretation is consistent with the text of 1 Timothy 2:4.
Oh God please don't make me have to explain it again! 😁
09 Nov 20
@secondson saidPetty and trivial argument going on and on. Here is another word to confuse the issue foreordained :
"Foreknowledge is knowing who will be saved". Of course.
"Predestination is deciding who will be saved". False.
Read the verse. "For whom he did foreknow,(those that would believe) he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,(what the believer would become)that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (embolden mine)
To pre ...[text shortened]... onsistent with the text of 1 Timothy 2:4.
Oh God please don't make me have to explain it again! 😁
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, (1 Peter 1:20 KJV)
Foreordained - both foreknew and predestined combined into one word. The important thing is that God knew in advance who it is that would be the righteous and faithful people. It is this group of people who he then used to do his will. The righteousness and faithfulness came FIRST . God calling and using them came AFTER. So Christians have it wrong.
09 Nov 20
@rajk999 saidWe weren't arguing.
Petty and trivial argument going on and on. Here is another word to confuse the issue foreordained :
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, (1 Peter 1:20 KJV)
Foreordained - both foreknew and predestined combined into one word. The important thing is that God knew in advance ...[text shortened]... ss and faithfulness came FIRST . God calling and using them came AFTER. So Christians have it wrong.
So you're admitting to confusing the issue?
It's an open book test Rajk. We're not confused, just working through the issue.
The word "foreordained", in the context of 1 Peter 1:20, has to do with God having planned that His Son would be for our redemption by the shedding of His blood, even before creation.
Sorry to hear you're confused.
09 Nov 20
1 edit
@secondson saidOur discussions have been derailed by this problem before. Unless you are prepared to acknowledge the standardised and accepted definitions of words used, then it is impossible to discuss anything with you.
"Predestination is deciding who will be saved". False.
“Predestination, in Christian theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
@divegeester saidThis is an example of the tail wagging the dog, and is a hilarious event at times but in the case of Christianity it is fatal. Its like how people claim to have a relationship with God/Christ. siting the dictionary definition of relationship, when the bible has no such word. The bible has children of God, sons of God, etc etc, all relationships but rules which are different to human relationships.
Our discussions have been derailed by this problem before. Unless you are prepared to acknowledge the standardised and accepted definitions of words used, then it is impossible to discuss anything with you.
“Predestination, in Christian theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
Predestination as defined in the bible seems to occur where God chooses people who are already faithful and righteous and THEN, makes use of that person in his plan. God does not change that person and even if God did not use that person he/she would still end up in the Kingdom of God., on their own accord. So the doctrine of Christianity has failed on this point.
Predestination [the bible definition] is seen in action here:
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! (John 1:47 KJV)
Nathanael was a righteous man even before he met Christ. Judas was an evil man, the son of perdition before he met Christ, and he remained that way. Both chosen to fulfil a specific part of Gods plan.
Wikipedia is not the word of God.
09 Nov 20
@divegeester saidI acknowledge the standardized and accepted definitions of the words foreknow and predestinate(d).
Our discussions have been derailed by this problem before. Unless you are prepared to acknowledge the standardised and accepted definitions of words used, then it is impossible to discuss anything with you.
“Predestination, in Christian theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
To foreknow is to know in advance what will be.
To predestinate is to determine what will be.
So far so good?
09 Nov 20
1 edit
@secondson saidActually no.
I acknowledge the standardized and accepted definitions of the words foreknow and predestinate(d).
To foreknow is to know in advance what will be.
To predestinate is to determine what will be.
So far so good?
This is the accepted definition:
“Predestination, in Christian theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul.”
09 Nov 20
@rajk999 saidGod does change people. That's what God does. It's called sanctification. Ever read that word in the Bible?
God does not change that person and even if God did not use that person he/she would still end up in the Kingdom of God., on their own accord.
If you think an individual can enter the kingdom of God "on their own accord", then what you're really saying is that Jesus Christ is obsolete.
Do you even remotely understand the heretical and unbiblical nonsense coming out of you?
09 Nov 20
1 edit
@divegeester saidOk, I accept that definition. Or at least I can work with it.
Actually no.
This is the accepted definition:
“Predestination, in Christian theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul.”
Would you say that Merriam-Webster has a handle on that?
"the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation".
09 Nov 20
@secondson saidThat definition removes free will. You cannot have it both ways.
Ok, I accept that definition. Or at least I can work with it.
Would you say that Merriam-Webster has a handle on that?
"the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation".
09 Nov 20
@indonesia-phil saidPerhaps there is no point and it just happens because your brain chemicals were all set up for it to go that way. If you think you chose otherwise that was again just what was always going to happen anyway and a total illusion. There becomes no point, but you are just a forced spectator anyway. Horrible stuff with a completely external locus of control that is somehow not resulting in depression for most.
If everything is preordained or predestined, what's the point in doing it?
I hate the concept, but to the best of my limited understanding Einstein argues for it forcefully in his much disliked fourth theory, suggesting that if you tracked the process to the very small there was only one way things could ever go and that that determined everything else.
The weird bit I wrestle with however, is the notion that a lot of your stuff gets done in parts of the brain that don't use verbal language. As such when you experience it as language in your mind it has already happened and you are actually experiencing it just slightly later than it occurred, so very much a spectator watching you just after you actually happened. It does beg the question how much choice you had if you experience the decision as made by a process of verbal deliberation within the mind that in fact was experienced later albeit minutely so.
09 Nov 20
1 edit
@indonesia-phil saidI disagree with the Christian notion that everything is preordained or predestined. I think what the bible says that there are specific people who have the qualities [good, bad or ugly] which God is searching for to work His plan for mankind. These few are preordained. These people probably just make up 1% of the world. The rest live their lives and will face judgment based on their works, even the ones who profess to know no God, will also be judged and rewarded or punished.
If everything is preordained or predestined, what's the point in doing it?
09 Nov 20
@petewxyz saidUnfortunately there are those in Christianity that adhere to the reformed doctrine of predestination, believing that God determined who would be saved or lost.
Perhaps there is no point and it just happens because your brain chemicals were all set up for it to go that way. If you think you chose otherwise that was again just what was always going to happen anyway and a total illusion. There becomes no point, but you are just a forced spectator anyway. Horrible stuff with a completely external locus of control that is somehow not re ...[text shortened]... rocess of verbal deliberation within the mind that in fact was experienced later albeit minutely so.
Fortunately the term predestinate, as used in Romans 8:29, doesn't hold to that definition. Somehow the correct juxtapositioning of the term "foreknow" with the word "predestinate", in the verse, escapes their notice, as it appears that the concept of individual responsibility doesn't play a role in man's fate with regards to their chosen theological position.
It's clear from the wording of said verse that God foreknew, and then as a consequence predestinated believers and unbelievers to their prospective destinies.
09 Nov 20
@indonesia-phil saidIf by predestined you mean that God decided who would be saved or not in advance, then we all may as well go home and die.
If everything is preordained or predestined, what's the point in doing it?
Because we would all have not one wit of say in any matter of life, ultimately.
It's not taught in the scriptures. Man was created in the image and likeness of God. God has freewill and so does man. God is omniscient, but man is not.
Therein lies the intersection between the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man.