Bible Works vs Faith

Originally posted by FMF
My point is, many Christians here feign proper engagement of Rajk999 by deliberately misconstruing what he is putting forward [and how he has argued it] and then try to personalize it instead by making it about whether he is claiming to have sinned or that he is perfect etc. etc. ad nauseam. It's interesting to see the rhetorical devices that overly proud Christians employ. It's been going on for years.

Believe it or not, your judgement creates no traction here.

Originally posted by FMF
He's just reacting to the doctrine that many Christians here propagate. Why do you never argue a doctrine that says there must be works [or otherwise the faith is "dead"]?

Because such a doctrine puts the cart before the horse.

Works is a product of faith, not the other way 'round.

Not that you would understand this, having no faith yourself.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Believe it or not, your judgement creates no traction here.

It's not a moral judgement, of course, it's simply an analysis of the way you argue (or perhaps don't argue) what you believe.

Originally posted by FMF
No you're mistaken. The discussion is about doctrine and the Bible, and efforts to deflect by personalizing it - playing the man (Rajk999) rather than the ball (his citation of scripture) - seen here at RHP, are always clumsy. The extent [or success, or sincerity etc.] to which he practices what he preaches is the subject of the "judgement" that Christians belie ...[text shortened]... odging the kernel of the debate over Christ's requirements as the Bible is said to portray them.

Whatever makes you think your judgement of Christians here creates any traction at all?

Nevermind, it doesn't matter what your reasoning is.

It doesn't create any traction, period.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Works is a product of faith, not the other way 'round.

Old flannel about it being "the other way round" or not being "the other way round" is a red herring. If the doctrine you claim to subscribe to says there must be works ~ otherwise the faith is "dead" ~ then why do you never seem to say that there must be works? If the works are not optional according to your theology, why is it that you have never said so, as far as I can recall?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Whatever makes you think your judgement of Christians here creates any traction at all?

What "judgement of Christians" do you mean? I'm simply engaging people on what they say in a debate.

On a side note: do you think chaney3 is a Christian?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Nevermind, it doesn't matter what your reasoning is. It doesn't create any traction, period.

I don't see why you have to be so evasive in the face of such a straight forward question about Christian belief.

Originally posted by FMF
Old flannel about it being "the other way round" or not being "the other way round" is a red herring. If the doctrine you claim to subscribe to says there [b]must be works ~ otherwise the faith is "dead" ~ then why do you never seem to say that there must be works? If the works are not optional according to your theology, why is it that you have never said so, as far as I can recall?[/b]

The question really is whether what some people consider to be 'good works' (that are done without faith) can really be considered good works, and whether such works bring about salvation.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
The question really is whether what some people consider to be 'good works' (that are done without faith) can really be considered good works, and whether such works bring about salvation.

As mentioned before, Romans 2:14-15 tells us that the requirements of the law are written on our hearts, and that this includes Gentiles.

God is telling you that even people without faith can do 'good works' if they follow their conscience and 'do by nature what the Law requires.'

Why are you not hearing this?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
The question really is whether what some people consider to be 'good works' (that are done without faith) can really be considered good works, and whether such works bring about salvation.

Well I am not interested in that question because, to my way of thinking, your "faith" is simply some fanciful stuff you just so happen to think about yourself and about supernatural things. For me, here, "the question really" is why do so many Christians have such difficulty being unequivocal about whether works are optional.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke to Fetchmyjunk
Why are you not hearing this?

He can't hear because, while you are interested in what the text actually says, he is only interested in trotting out his already internalized ideology.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
As mentioned before, Romans 2:14-15 tells us that the requirements of the law are written on our hearts, and that this includes Gentiles.

God is telling you that even people without faith can do 'good works' if they follow their conscience and 'do by nature what the Law requires.'

Why are you not hearing this?

It says that people with no faith can occasionally obey their conscience. You made up the "good works" part. The question is does the occasional obedience to your conscience merit salvation. Obviously not.

Originally posted by FMF
Well I am not interested in that question because, to my way of thinking, your "faith" is simply some fanciful stuff you just so happen to think about yourself and about supernatural things. For me, here, "the question really" is why do so many Christians have such difficulty being unequivocal about whether works are optional.

To my way of thinking the message of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing, so no surprise there. Believing that works don't save you doesn't necessarily mean you believe they are optional. By the way.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Believing that works don't save you doesn't necessarily mean you believe they are optional. By the way.

You seem to be yet another Christian who is unable to say something unequivocal about whether "good works" are optional or not. It's interesting.

Originally posted by FMF
You seem to be yet another Christian who is unable to say something unequivocal about whether "good works" are optional or not. It's interesting.

I have been unequivocal about 2 things.

1. Faith without works is dead.
2. We are not saved by works, lest any man should boast.