Originally posted by JS357"Faith is holding something to be true without proof."
His version is pretty straightforward Hebrews 11:1:
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)
So "...faith is... the evidence..."
And you are right. Faith is holding something to be true without proof.
There is a subtlety here, that the holder of faith has all the proof he needs, which is non ...[text shortened]... erhaps, like I thought I once was.
This means there is nothing to be gained by argumentation.
That's not logical. To begin with, faith comes from the object in which it is trusting. Not from something not known to exist. Having faith without proof of the existence of its object is as idiotic as it can get.
happens all the time though I must admit, it's an illusion or a delusion
The knowledge of the existence of that which one has faith in comes first, then faith follows and grows as one's knowledge of the object of faith increases.
Faith is not wishful hoping in something one doesn't know to exist. That would not be faith at all since its object isn't known to exist.
Faith is the action one exercises when the knowledge of faith's object is known. Faith is the walk according to The Truth.
"You have to be there, like I once was. Or perhaps, like I thought I once was."
Not sure what you mean by that, but if you're suggesting that you once had faith that produced no fruit, then what you had wasn't faith.
Originally posted by vivify"When Job was tested, he had every reason to doubt God."
When Job was tested, he had every reason to doubt God. Job was praised by the bible for having blind faith in a god that let his family members die, his riches disappear and diseases afflict his entire body... all at the same time, with no knowledge of why this happened, despite Job being nothing but faithful to God.
Job had nothing to hold on to but bl ...[text shortened]... that is exactly what their religion endorses. Blind faith is considered a virtue in the bible.
If that's what you think, then you know nothing about Job. Not once did Job have any doubt in God. Job had full faith in God even though he didn't understand God's reasons for allowing him to be so afflicted.
after all, Job wasn't present during the exchange between God and Satan concerning Job's faithfulness
Originally posted by josephwI never said Job doubted God. Re-read my post. I said Job had every reason to doubt God, which is different. I even made it clear that Job was rewarded for not doubting and having faith.
[b]"When Job was tested, he had every reason to doubt God."
If that's what you think, then you know nothing about Job. Not once did Job have any doubt in God. Job had full faith in God even though he didn't understand God's reasons for allowing him to be so afflicted. [hidden]after all, Job wasn't present during the exchange between God and Satan concerning Job's faithfulness[/hidden][/b]
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Originally posted by ZahlanziChristians on this thread and elsewhere argue that their faith isn't blind, but had some sort of rationality. This is false since there's not only no rational reason to believe in their god, but the bible also promotes blind faith as a virtue; Job being one example.
i am not talking about this meaning, but rather the second, which says that faith is believing in something without proof. from there i arguthat blind faith is believing in something despite proof to the contrary. blind faith is still believing the global flood happened despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Originally posted by Suzianneyou don't get to spew nonsense, declare it intelligent, then whine that others don't understand you.
At the risk of summoning up a "no true faith" argument, I will just say that those who have actually experienced faith in a 'life-changing' way do have a 'knowledge' they have gained from their faith.
I invite others to 'naysay' me all they want. But those who have experience with what faith is will agree with me. I'm frankly surprised that there are those who call themselves Christian who only understand faith from the dictionary definition.
what you are talking about is believing in something without proof. that is fine. i believe in god without proof. i am not questioning the reasoning behind that act. there is no reason, because there is no proof and that is perfectly acceptable.
that concept is called faith. you cannot redefine it any more than you can redefine chair or house or cookie.
if you have "faith" in something, you may gain "knowledge" about you as a person, how that faith makes you feel, act. you will never gain knowledge about that something.
Originally posted by vivify"Christians on this thread and elsewhere argue that their faith isn't blind, but had some sort of rationality. This is false since there's not only no rational reason to believe in their god"
Christians on this thread and elsewhere argue that their faith isn't blind, but had some sort of rationality. This is false since there's not only no rational reason to believe in their god, the bible also promotes blind faith as a virtue; Job being one example.
i agree there is no rationality to faith. faith, by it's definition is holding a statement to be true despite no evidence to support said statement.
or opinions diverge from there. it is one thing to believe something without proof for whatever reasons. it makes one happy, it seems true to one, it makes sense. humans can then spend their life in pursuit of that faith. ptolemy believed the earth is round, he struggled to prove it and he did. it then stopped being faith and became knowledge. he no longer believed the earth is round, he knew it.
in contrast to the above we have blind faith. faith in something that is blind to any evidence to the contrary, existent or future. someone with blind faith believes noah's flood happened and no amount of evidence disproving various aspects of that story will ever sway him.
"the bible also promotes blind faith as a virtue"
link verse please. job is not a valid example, i will explain next why not.
"Job being one example."
the story of job is not one of blind faith as defined by belief in something despite proof to the contrary. job knows god exists.
the trials of job are not to make him an atheist, to doubt his faith. his trials are supposed to make him stop loving God, to make him turn away from him.
job is an example of humility, of understanding one cannot question god's actions, that one must endure anything is thrown at him. not once does job or his friends question god's existence, in fact God speaks to him and his friends at the end.
we are speaking right now. do you think i need faith that you exist?
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Originally posted by ZahlanziRegarding Job, the act of faith was in believing that God was good and worthy of respect, despite all the trouble God had allowed in Job's life. Faith isn't limited to believing something exists. You can believe a politician exists without having faith the politician will do their job.
"Christians on this thread and elsewhere argue that their faith isn't blind, but had some sort of rationality. This is false since there's not only no rational reason to believe in their god"
i agree there is no rationality to faith. faith, by it's definition is holding a statement to be true despite no evidence to support said statement.
or opinions ...[text shortened]... his friends at the end.
we are speaking right now. do you think i need faith that you exist?
That said, Job is an example of the bible praising blind faith.
Originally posted by ZahlanziI am not "redefining" faith. Well, maybe I am, at that. I believe that the current "textbook definition" of faith is lacking. As Joseph said, "Faith is the evidence of things unseen." Evidence. The "faith of the mustard seed" explicitly infers a certain knowledge that is gained by those with this faith. One does not become "born again" and then dedicate one's life to God without some explicit knowledge of what he is getting into, and this is called Faith.
that concept is called faith. you cannot redefine it any more than you can redefine chair or house or cookie.
if you have "faith" in something, you may gain "knowledge" about you as a person, how that faith makes you feel, act. you will never gain knowledge about that something.
I'm truly sorry if you're not grasping my meaning here. I'm sure Joseph understands what I'm talking about.
I have this saying on my fridge. I've mentioned it here before, and it bears repeating right now. It says, "The Most High has spoken... even with His own blood. Surely, we know."
This is the Faith I am speaking of. Surely, we know.
Originally posted by Suzianneyou are defining a different concept. you realized that just now. you don't get to do that, understand? you can't suddenly decide that from now on, chair will include tables, because you want to say "i sat on a chair at a chair with 4 chairs around it"
I am not "redefining" faith. Well, maybe I am, at that. I believe that the current "textbook definition" of faith is lacking. As Joseph said, "Faith is the evidence of things unseen." Evidence. The "faith of the mustard seed" explicitly infers a certain knowledge that is gained by those with this faith. One does not become "born again" and then dedica ...[text shortened]... we know."
[b]This is the Faith I am speaking of. Surely, we know.[/b]
"I'm truly sorry if you're not grasping my meaning here."
i am grasping it. it is stupid. faith is not the evidence of things unseen. otherwise it would mean we can say everything is true if we believe it. santa? sure. unicorns? why not.
"I have this saying on my fridge."
your fridge doesn't get to decide what is true or not, or what words mean any more than you can.
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Originally posted by vivify"Regarding Job, the act of faith was in believing that God was good and worthy of respect, despite all the trouble God had allowed in Job's life."
Regarding Job, the act of faith was in believing that God was good and worthy of respect, despite all the trouble God had allowed in Job's life. Faith isn't limited to believing something exists. You can believe a politician exists without having faith the politician will do their job.
That said, Job is an example of the bible praising blind faith.
yes, that is the first definition.
that still needs someone or something proven to be real to have trust in. god is not proven to be real. therefore there can be no knowledge through faith, no matter what definition you consider.
back to job, god eventually rewarded job for his trouble. job is no longer the one having blind faith, he is the genius who got rewarded for his devotion.
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Originally posted by josephwI wanted apples and got oranges.
[b]"Faith is holding something to be true without proof."
That's not logical. To begin with, faith comes from the object in which it is trusting. Not from something not known to exist. Having faith without proof of the existence of its object is as idiotic as it can get.[hidden]happens all the time though I must admit, it's an illusion or a delusion[/ ...[text shortened]... ou're suggesting that you once had faith that produced no fruit, then what you had wasn't faith.[/b]
Originally posted by ZahlanziYou've truly spent too much time in the Debates forum and not enough time on what actually matters. It is like you wear the clothes of a Christian, and yet there is an atheist inside trying to get out.
you are defining a different concept. you realized that just now. you don't get to do that, understand? you can't suddenly decide that from now on, chair will include tables, because you want to say "i sat on a chair at a chair with 4 chairs around it"
"I'm truly sorry if you're not grasping my meaning here."
i am grasping it. it is stupid. faith is not ...[text shortened]... your fridge doesn't get to decide what is true or not, or what words mean any more than you can.
I cannot make you feel your faith. I cannot make you aware of the knowledge inherent in faith. Perhaps you actually have no faith. But I say to you that if your faith was even as small as the faith of the mustard seed, or of the lilies of the field, then you too would know, and not just "hope".
Originally posted by Suzianne"not enough time on what actually matters."
You've truly spent too much time in the Debates forum and not enough time on what actually matters. It is like you wear the clothes of a Christian, and yet there is an atheist inside trying to get out.
I cannot make you feel your faith. I cannot make you aware of the knowledge inherent in faith. Perhaps you actually have no faith. But I say to you th ...[text shortened]... ustard seed, or of the lilies of the field, then you too would know, and not just "hope".
meaning not enough time on what you think actually matters.
i have no trouble believing in god and jesus while still trying to live a logical existence. if tomorrow someone presents undisputable proof that jesus was a woman, i will have no trouble adjusting my views.
"It is like you wear the clothes of a Christian, and yet there is an atheist inside trying to get out."
it is like you have the nerve to tell me you are a true christian and i am not.
"I cannot make you feel your faith."
you mean you cannot make me feel YOUR faith. which is correct. each one's faith is personal.
"Perhaps you actually have no faith."
perhaps i am the one to decide that. i just did. i do have faith. i don't have faith in what YOU feel i should have faith in.
"But I say to you that if your faith was even as small as the faith of the mustard seed, or of the lilies of the field, then you too would know, and not just "hope""
no matter the amount of faith, one would still not know, no matter how much one deludes oneself. by your reasoning, children KNOW santa claus is real. is he? do you count that as knowledge? how about the crazy hobos that KNOW the government is mind controlling them? they have faith in that, greater than a mustard seed. does that count as knowledge?
Originally posted by vivifyThat's what I get for reading too fast! My apologies. Just another knee jerk reaction on my part.
I never said Job doubted God. Re-read my post. I said Job had every reason to doubt God, which is different. I even made it clear that Job was rewarded for not doubting and having faith.