Blood Sacrifice?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Let's take a vote, or--- better--- a collection. You, knightmeister in a room, finally figuring who gets to be on top, who belongs on the bottom. Good Lord, if you bickered any more, we'd have to call this "The Jeffersons."

I'm not interested in being "on top" - just would like some honesty , fairness and truth for a change.

Ultimately the truth can be the only winner , not individuals.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Let's take a vote, or--- better--- a collection. You, knightmeister in a room, finally figuring who gets to be on top, who belongs on the bottom. Good Lord, if you bickered any more, we'd have to call this "The Jeffersons."

Why didn't you direct this at the guy who has been stalking me for about two years now?

The guy who thinks nothing about misrepresenting the position of others on a consistent and persistent basis?

If KM would stop the harassment, I'd have nothing to say to the guy.

So why don't you go to work on him?

You know over all that time, I think only one Christian has had the moral decency to tell KM that he was out of line, though a number of atheists have done so. You could make it two. Things like this make it really difficult to draw the conclusion that atheists, by and large, aren't more moral than Christians.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Only one conclusion can be drawn: You are a liar.

Anyone with regard for truth can see this.
---------ToOne-----------------------

....and yet you won't go on the record as saying you believe in the God that Jesus described?

Curious.

I note also that on threads where it suits you use God with a captial "G" but on other threads you have ...[text shortened]... Your unwillingness to clear things up once and for all tells everyone what they need to know.

....and yet you won't go on the record as saying you believe in the God that Jesus described?

And now back to saying you don't know within the space of an hour.

Like usual you don't care what supports your accusations just so long as you make them.

A liar does what a liar is.

Originally posted by LemonJello
So you think justice necessitates that an innocent be made to bleed? What a bizarre take on justice.

No, I think that justice necessitates paying for a transgression. Nothing necessitated Christ taking my place. That is why we call it grace.

Originally posted by amolv06
I've never understood this. I'm asking this out of true curiosity: why is it just to punish another for our transgressions? This idea seems very foreign to me. Shouldn't we have to pay for our own crimes?

Yes and no. We still pay a price for our transgressions, however, not necessariy for an eternity. For example, the law states that if we sin we die and we shall all surely die. In addition, we often pay a price for making poor decisions as do others around us.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
I think we can all agree on one thing, which is that all righteousness comes from God, not us
might be debalable ...

but ignoring the absurdity of [b]that statement your assertion that one must do something more than expected to be righteous is ridiculous. What if ones god expects a blood sacrifice as the norm? by your own argument o ...[text shortened]... le more special .... mmmmm let me think ... mass murder? (of non-believers, maybe)

Scarey! 😲[/b]

God defines what is righteous, not us. His law is written in our hearts as well as in his word. Specifially, we have an innate sense that we should do unto others as we would have them do to us. It is how we are wired and God did the wiring.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
This system of values is just wacky and out of balance. The believer is encouraged to blame themselves for every shortcoming and imperfection that they have, yet take no credit for even the smallest bit of good that they do.

Is it any wonder that the 'solution' to this problem is healthy doses of bizarro-justice?!

We keep hearing statements like, " ...[text shortened]... perfectly obvious that the way you right a wrong is by making yet another innocent suffer.

So you want to give yourself a pat on the back every time you treat others the way you would want to be treated? Ok then, how many good deeds have you done for the week and we will all sing your praises.

Another persective would be to be humbled by the notion that our "goodness" comes from a higher power, not from ourselves. In fact, everything comes from this higher power except for unrighteousness.

As for the blood atonement, this is something that God has set up, or at least, what I believe he has set up to avoid the delimma of not wanting to destroy the sinner but, at the same time, destroying the sin.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]For those who turn their nose up at blood sacrifice, the only alternative is atonement through good works. In other words, doing the right thing helps atone for the other times you did not do the right thing.

If you ever get around to paying attention to the teachings of Jesus, you will find a message of repentance and transformation. Repentance ...[text shortened]... e or, in the case of the arrogantly indolent, pointing to having had that gesture made for them.[/b]

Wrong. I recognize the message of repenatance. In fact, as Galations indicates, we should see the evidence of such a conversion through the fruts of the spirit. The main difference between you and I is that you believe that this evidence is what saves us as where I believe it does not save us, rather, it is merely evidence for our salvation.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Kindly explain to the viewing public your take on justice, then. By all means.

I second the motion!!

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Why didn't you direct this at the guy who has been stalking me for about two years now?

The guy who thinks nothing about misrepresenting the position of others on a consistent and persistent basis?

If KM would stop the harassment, I'd have nothing to say to the guy.

So why don't you go to work on him?

You know over all that time, I think only ...[text shortened]... icult to draw the conclusion that atheists, by and large, aren't more moral than Christians.

Why didn't you direct this at the guy who has been stalking me for about two years now?
--------------------ToOne-------------------

Oh come on , you have been stalking around Christians for the last 2 years , peppering them with quotes and arguments based on theology you don't even believe in yourself.

You don't actually really believe in God so why are YOU stalking Christians and Christianity?

Jesus clearly believed in a living God who was his Father. You do NOT believe this.

If you just came out of the closet and admitted you were an Atheist having a pop at Christianity and Christians then that would be authentic. Instead , you stalk around like some nebulus wolf in sheep's clothing , quoting Jesus here , talking about "being one with God" there - I mean who's the stalker really eh?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]....and yet you won't go on the record as saying you believe in the God that Jesus described?

And now back to saying you don't know within the space of an hour.

Like usual you don't care what supports your accusations just so long as you make them.

A liar does what a liar is.[/b]

And now back to saying you don't know within the space of an hour.

Like usual you don't care what supports your accusations just so long as you make them.

A liar does what a liar is.

--------------ToOne--------------------

Don't worry ToOne , I know what game you are playing and am prepared to call you out on it , that's why you can't stand me.

I don't think either of us are liars to be honest. I just think you are not up front or authentic. You can't put your cards on the table because you are afraid of what others might then think of your argument.

It's just a game you are playing , but it's obvious you don't believe that Jesus was the Son of the Living God and you don't believe in the transforming power of the Spirit.

If you did there would be absolutely nothing to prevent you from saying it in your next post.

Nothing at all.

Of course , everyone realises this and that's why they are not rounding on me for being particularly unfair or misrepresentative - ie because they know it 's a totally fair and logical question to ask.


(BTW - to make a statement about what you think someone else believes is not an "accusation" it's a statement that is either true or false. It's not a terrible thing to not believe in God , I'm Ok with it , it's not as if I am accusing you of abuse or something lol )

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Why didn't you direct this at the guy who has been stalking me for about two years now?

The guy who thinks nothing about misrepresenting the position of others on a consistent and persistent basis?

If KM would stop the harassment, I'd have nothing to say to the guy.

So why don't you go to work on him?

You know over all that time, I think only ...[text shortened]... icult to draw the conclusion that atheists, by and large, aren't more moral than Christians.

You know over all that time, I think only one Christian has had the moral decency to tell KM that he was out of line, though a number of atheists have done so.

--------------ToOne------------------

I started a thread that was out of line and was told so. I admitted this and didn't pursue the thread. That was it. Done. You want to live in the past? Fine.

No-one has said I was out of line for asking you what you believe or countering your misrepresentation of Jesus. Infact many have begun to wonder why you won't answer straight questions.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Kindly explain to the viewing public your take on justice, then. By all means.

I thought we already basically had that discussion. Don't you recall the at least somewhat recent thread in which you implied that it is at times "emphatically necessary" that persons be made to suffer in the name of justice? In that thread I explicitly asked you to present some argument for such a claim; and you failed to present any. If you recall, I argued there that your view on justice was misguided (particularly in the way you seemed to stress the suffering of persons as some sort of restitutive end unto itself in the pursuit of justice). In support of my argument, I gave some considerations that generally relate to my view on justice; and I gave reasons why I thought it is not the case that justice emphatically necessitates that persons be made to suffer (and why I thought you were largely just confusing vindictiveness for justice).

To refresh your memory, I think justice generally has to do with considerations of fairness, equitable treatment, distribution of goods and bads, preservation of liberties and opportunities, considerations of property and rights thereof, etc. I don't really know what else to tell you here except to say that the doctrine of the scapegoat strikes me as incredibly bizarre. It is properly relegated to the realm of "bizarro-justice" as pointed out by SwissGambit.

Originally posted by whodey
No, I think that justice necessitates paying for a transgression. Nothing necessitated Christ taking my place. That is why we call it grace.

Thanks for the clarification. So you think that justice necessitates payment for our transgressions.

And you think that the blood sacrifice of an innocent can cash in for us in that respect and make the payment for us.

So, you think the suffering and "blood sacrifice" of an innocent lends itself to cosmic justice. Same thing holds: I think that is a bizarre take on justice.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Thanks for the clarification. So you think that justice necessitates payment for our transgressions.

And you think that the blood sacrifice of an innocent can cash in for us in that respect and make the payment for us.

So, you think the suffering and "blood sacrifice" of an innocent lends itself to cosmic justice. Same thing holds: I think that is a bizarre take on justice.

You should not think that there are many many "blood sacrifices" in the world. There is only ONE sacrifice that counts for all eternity.

Do not think "O, Jesus was a blood sacrifice among many many thousands of such blood sacrifices. Those practiced by the Aztecs, those practiced by Israel, those done by the other nations. Jesus is just one of many thousands of such blood scrifices."

You should not consider this way because in God's eyes there is only ONE such event, just one.

Some may argue that there were many goats and lambs and bulls on the altar in the Old Testament. Some may argue that this act was repeated by hundreds of other nations.

Actually, there is what God instructed Abel to do (probably through learning from his parents) and it was passed down and embellished by cultures all over the globe. What the Aztecs did I am pretty sure was in the collective memory of mankind going back to Cain and Abel.

There was the typology that Yahweh instructed the Isrealites to perform. But actually there is only ONE propitiatory offering for the sins of all human beings. That is the redemptive death of Christ on Calvary.

Just one LemonJello. Just one death that matters.

In the remaining of this short post on a very weighty subject I would only briefly remark:

The forgiven sinner is a paid for sinner. Before God the redeemed from His Law are not forgiven debtors. They are instead PAID UP debtors who have been forgiven.

God estblished this not any human imagination. His way to forgive us is to cause us to be PAID UP in the dept that was owed and forgiven.

I say again, before God the redeemed are not forgiven debters, but paid up debtors.

The price for the paying up is only known to God. Its value, its preciousness, its costliness can only be comprehended by God. We cannot know how much it meant to God. We do know that a paying up has been accomplished in the blood of the Son of God which is effective enough to cover all the sins of all mankind throughout all time.

This procedure was established by God. Perhaps He could have chosen some other way. He did not. He neither consulted with me or with you to be advized. God established a plan that matches His dignity, His righteous nature, His glory.

We should just believe and be submitted to Him in this. God says that in the cross of Jesus and in the shedding of His blood the Divine Judgment against sins has been exhausted for whoever would receive the Son of God.