Calling Impartial Atheists

Originally posted by JS357
"I am not sure what the pope and Galileo worked out. But I include God in my reasoning and logic process."

My point is it was not science that turned its back on theology, it was religion that said get your empirical noses out of religion and we'll let you alone. This eventually led to a materialistic bent in science.

Suggested reading:

https://www.bi ...[text shortened]... If you confine your scientific research to the physical world, the Church will leave you alone."

Personally I think people in both camps defend their turf and belittle the other side as if it
were always one train of thought against another. People tend to do that a lot, not just those
in science or religion, it is a trait we all carry, in my opinion.

Originally posted by KellyJay
People tend to do that a lot, not just those in science or religion, it is a trait we all carry, in my opinion.

You're clearly an angry, huffy, spiteful and prideful type of Christian. You make no effort to disguise the fact. Are you - according to your own beliefs - in danger of being sent to "hell" after you die?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Personally I think people in both camps defend their turf and belittle the other side as if it
were always one train of thought against another. People tend to do that a lot, not just those
in science or religion, it is a trait we all carry, in my opinion.

Neither side can lay claim to an unbiased defense of its position, partly because reasoned, fact-based discussions are often invaded by people of both sides who are not reasonable, especially on forums like this..

The situation facing both science and religion in the time of Galileo was the fact that there was no clear distinction or cut-off point between the subject matter of religion and the areas of natural philosophy that were becoming scientific. A perfect example was geocentrism. The two forces worked out a compromise division of authority that reserved some areas for each side. Of course with continuing scientific discoveries and political events, adjustments have to be made to conserve a relatively peaceful balance, to this day.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Calling Impartial People again.

Here is a passage from Peter. What is Peter saying here and what place does Peter give to Knowledge, particularly Knowledge of Christ and Faith.:

Sonship seems to be claiming that Knowledge and Faith is the most important thing. While the Apostle Peter is listing a whole lot of other qualities which if ignored means th ...[text shortened]... see afar off,
and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (2 Peter 1:3-9 KJV)[/i]

Not sure why you omitted 10-11 which gets to the point:
10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The writer is saying that entrance into the kingdom requires diligently adding virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity to the knowledge of Jesus.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Not sure why you omitted 10-11 which gets to the point:
10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The writer is saying that entra ...[text shortened]... nowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity to knowledge of Jesus.

You are correct about that. Thanks

Originally posted by sonship
I am not sure what the pope and Galileo worked out. But I include God in my reasoning and logic process.

God invites man to reason with Him concerning his sins and concerning what wonderful provision God has made for their removal and cleansing.

[quote] [b] "Come now and let us reason together, Says Jehovah. Though your sins are like scarlet, the ...[text shortened]... cludes and important part of my humanity. This is a logic which applies to my complete humanity.

This is an example of how you take a verse out of context and pretend that it says something other than what is actually being said.

In Isaiah 1, God tells Israel that they have "abandoned" and "turned away from" Him. That they are "sinful", "weighed down with iniquity", "act corruptly", etc. That as such, their "hands are covered with blood".

God tells them that their sacrifices, offerings and prayers are meaningless to Him.

God tells them to "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean". That to do this they must "Remove the evil of your deeds from [His] sight, cease to do evil, learn to do good, seek justice, reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, plead for the widow". That if they do these things: “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Tough they are red like crimson, They will be like wool."

God tells them that they must "consent and obey".

Isaiah 1:18 is NOT "God's offer for [you] to COME to Him for forgiveness, cleansing, and a relationship" - not in the way you seem to mean it.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

This is an example of how you take a verse out of context and pretend that it says something other than what is actually being said.
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My usage of Isaiah 1:18 was more of an application of its principle to a new covenant experience than a strict interpretation of that chapter.

And I absolutely stand by my usage of it.

1.) Should we NOT come to God and reason with His plan of salvation ?

2.) Should we NOT respond (either OR context or NT context) to allow Him to cleanse away our sins whatEVER they may be ?

I don't see that you have as hefty a case as you imagine. The fact of the matter is that Christ is the final manner in which God deals with ALL of man's redemptive needs from the beginning of the world until eternity.

I have no need to undercut Christ's eternal redemption by appealing to "context" of Isaiah chapter one to argue that it has nothing to do with God's overall plan of redemption. It was reasonable then and it is reasonable now.


In Isaiah 1, God tells Israel that they have "abandoned" and "turned away from" Him.
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That is correct. And we learn in chapter 53 that "we ALL" have become like sheep and turned away from God to our OWN way.

" We all like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way, And Jehovah has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him." (Isaiah 53:6)

How did the Apostle Peter refer to this passage ? I think as a Christian I should take Peter's example that isaiah 53 speaks to Christ's eternal redemption for ALL human beings, no, not just Israelites.

I think your beef on the entire chapter of Isaiah 1 being aloof or unrelated in any way to Christ's eternal redemption is something of a mistake. All the things written in the Old Testament have a benefit of being examples to latter seekers of God.

" Now these things occurred as examples to us, that we should not be ones who lust after evil things, even as they lusted. " (1 Cor. 10:6)

"Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our admonition, unto whom the ends of the ages have come." (v.11)

Your view is rather - "These things in Isaiah 1 have nothing to do with the New Testament experience involving Jesus Christ. Context renders them completely unrelated to anything about Christ."

Well. the need for us today to have our crimes, sins, transgressions, iniquities be turned from guilty to forgiven is just the same. And it is just as reasonable to consider God's offer in Christ to apply to our lives.

The past things were written as examples to us upon whom the ends of the age have come.


That they are "sinful", "weighed down with iniquity", "act corruptly", etc. That as such, their "hands are covered with blood".
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It would be indeed foolish to "contextualize" away the fact that we today can also be "sinful," "weighed down with iniquity," "act corruptedly," Do you think such moral condition before God cannot apply to people today ?

As for "hands ... covered with blood [edited] " why wait until it seems true of all.
Many enjoy the violence of video games as if they would LIKE to have hands covered in blood via unbridled violence. The violence of TV and motion pictures is a billion dollar entertainment industry. Somebody likes at least the activity of unbridled violence - man against man, if even just in the imagination.


As an American society, we might consider the millions of yearly killing of unborn babies could be viewed as a cultural and collective covering of our hands with blood.


God tells them that their sacrifices, offerings and prayers are meaningless to Him.
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The same could be and certainly is true today.
I don't yet see your "context" argument as a reason to not learn from the principles reveal in this portion of God's word.


God tells them to "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean". That to do this they must "Remove the evil of your deeds from [His] sight, cease to do evil, learn to do good, seek justice, reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, plead for the widow".
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That if they do these things: “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Tough they are red like crimson, They will be like wool."
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I will reserve further comment in another post for length's sake.


God tells them that they must "consent and obey".
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Isaiah 1:18 is NOT "God's offer for [you] to COME to Him for forgiveness, cleansing, and a relationship" - not in the way you seem to mean it.
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I'll take up this challenge in a post dedicated to this one complaint below.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

God tells them that their sacrifices, offerings and prayers are meaningless to Him.

God tells them to "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean".

So now I think where you're headed is denying the need for Christ's redemption because we can "wash" ourselves by deciding to do better. I think you may be headed toward this point. And you have "context" to point to to encourage this belief and discourage any application of Isaiah 1:18 to God forgiving through Christ's work on Calvary.

Now, the complaint of God against vain worship via burnt offerings and rams and fat of fed cattle, and blood of bulls and lambs is clearly not His delight (Isa. 1:11)

"Bring no more vain offerings; Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of convocations - I cannot bear iniquity and solemn assembly." (v.13)

My usage of coming to God for eternal redemption is not an endorsement to have or continue "iniquity and solemn assembly". The reasonableness of coming to God for eternal redemption does not include a reasoning or logic to indulge in hypocritical and vain piety.

What God said He hated then I am sure He still hates. Did I suggest that coming to Christ for forgiveness must or should be accompanied with these age-old emptiness of religiosity - "iniquity and solemn assembly" ?

Christ came to replace the animals that served as types of His sacrificing of Himself. This is elaborated by Christ Himself while He walked on earth following His resurrection from the dead. And of course the book of Hebrews much elaborates that Christ replaced the animal offerings.

But let's get to what I think is the real essence of your post. I think what you mean to impress me with is that this cleansing of themselves is done by doing morally better.

I would agree that the washing there in verse 16 is by the turning away from evil deeds and to learn to do good.

"Wash yourselves; cleanse yourselves. Turn away the evil of your deeds from before My eyes. Cease doing what is evil;

Learn to do good; See justice; Correct the ruthless;
Defend the orphan;
Plead for the widow;

Come now and let us reason together, says Jehovah, Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow;

Though they are as red as crimson, They will be like wool." (vs.16-18)

If God expected that they could, under the old covenant, cleanse away their sins in an eternal sense, then He would not have promised that a new covenant would be enacted which would do that.

"How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God." (Heb. 9:11)

To serve the living God we must first have our conscience cleansed through believing in the offering of Christ of Himself for that cleansing. Even the former works were called "dead works" for they were from a source which is spiritually dead to God, the fallen sin nature.

So to serve the living God with living works issuing out of Christ living in us we first must come to God in Christ for eternal redemption.

Jesus Christ, while He walked on earth after His resurrection from this offering, taught that the OT Scriptures (including Isaiah) spoke of His work.

"Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures ..." (Luke 24;45)

Isaiah chapter 1 is of course part of the Scriptures. Though I cannot insist that Jesus elaborated in Isaiah 1:18. at least in principle, Jesus said all the Scriptures pointed to His redemptive plan,

"And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day, And that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem." (Luke 24:46,47)

The things in the book of Isaiah, along with "all the Scriptures" pointed to Jesus Christ. He put them into the greatest "context".

Again, as He walked on earth following His resurrection, He taught -

"And He said to them, O foolish and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory?

And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets [including Isaiah] , He explained to them clearly in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." (Luke 24:25-27)

It looks like the larger context of chapter one of Isaiah the prophet is concerning Himself - Jesus of Nazareth. And of course Jesus throughout His teaching is not teaching vain religiosity. Rather unless His kingdom people have a righteousness which exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees they will not enter into the kingdom of the heavens (Matt. 5:20) .

Did I say coming to God for redemption absolves the redeemed from a change in life?
Did I say coming to God for forgiveness gave license to offer vain worship or continued moral depravity and injustice ? Rather redemption and indwelling of that Redeemer as the Holy Spirit is the commencement of a transformed life on the highest ethical plane.

That to do this they must "Remove the evil of your deeds from [His] sight, cease to do evil, learn to do good, seek justice, reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, plead for the widow". That if they do these things: “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Tough they are red like crimson, They will be like wool."

God tells them that they must "consent and obey".

That is right. And again Jesus while He walked on earth, especially following His resurrection, taught that they need Him for forgiveness and living so to inherit the kingdom of God.

Isaiah 1:18 is NOT "God's offer for [you] to COME to Him for forgiveness, cleansing, and a relationship" - not in the way you seem to mean it.

Again, what "context" did Jesus give to all the Scriptures and all the prophets ?

" Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures; ... Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day. And REPENTANCE for FORGIVENESS of sins would be proclaimed in HIS NAME to ALL THE NATIONS, ... " (Luke 24:47)

Excuse my raising the voice. But any isolating "context" reading of Isaiah 1:18 or its surrounding verses I would not take as nullifying the larger context given to the Scriptures by Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by JS357
Neither side can lay claim to an unbiased defense of its position, partly because reasoned, fact-based discussions are often invaded by people of both sides who are not reasonable, especially on forums like this..

The situation facing both science and religion in the time of Galileo was the fact that there was no clear distinction or cut-off point between t ...[text shortened]... ical events, adjustments have to be made to conserve a relatively peaceful balance, to this day.

I agree with you, these types of discussions get personal far faster than they can even hit
upon a point where everyone agrees on.

I spent some of today reading carefully the whole chapter of Isaiah 1. And I read it with an attitude of seeing if I was being fair to ToO on my treatment of the chapter in the larger context of Christ which He gave to all the Scriptures and the prophets.

It is an interesting argument that ToO made. But I still have to say ALL the promises of God find their Yes and Amen in Jesus Christ.

Now consider that Isaiah 1 says that the Israelites should wash themselves by the acts of greater social justice and charity. ToO did have a point here. Look -

" WASH YOURSELVES; cleanse yourselves, Turn away the evil of your deeds from before My eyes. (v.16)

Apparently this cleansing of THEMSELVES by THEMSELVES does seem to involve the following -

"Learn to do good. Seek justice; Correct the ruthless. Defend the orphan; Plead for the widow." (v.17)

It is also noted that latter in verse God says that Zion will be redeemed or ransomed with JUSTICE.

"Zion will be ransomed with justice, And her returning ones with righteousness." (v.27)

The context of the foregoing verses strongly show by God's judging the wayward nation He will ransom them.

However, in the large context of the whole plan of God, the JUDGMENT fell upon the Son of God. And this redeeming through God's divine judgment falling on the Son of God is clearly revealed in chapter 53.

"That He was cut off from the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due... (v.8b)

But Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief when He makes Himself an offering for sin, ... (v.10a)

By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous, And He will bear their iniquities. (v.11b)

Therefore I will divide to Him a portion with the Great, And He will divide the spoil with the Strong; Because He poured out His life unto death and was numbered with the transgressors,

Yet He alone bore the sin of many and interceded for the transgressors. " (See v.12)

"[T]he Great and "the Strong" probably refer to God the Father.

On the cross of Calvary the Righteous One, the Servant Jesus Christ interceded for all mankind saying - "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing." (Luke 23:34) .

In "real time" the Son of God made intercession for the sinners of all the world. And God the Father allowed Christ Himself to be the propitiating offering that we may be forgiven according to the petition of the Righteous One in real time. What a powerful prayer that was from the lips of the Son of God on His cross.

So I would say, that it is not unnoticed that the washing is related to learning to do good there is Isaiah chapter one. But I would have to put it in a larger context of knowing Christ. For in knowing Christ (not just knowing Christ's death and resurrection) the many gain righteousness before God.

"By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous." (Isaiah 53:11b)

Of course in Isaiah 53 the RESURRECTION of this Suffering Servant who dies in offering Himself is strongly indicated there. For He will be SATISFIED with the result of His offering. So He has to be resurrected in order to SEE the result and be satisfied.

"He will see the fruit of the travail of His soul and He will be satisfied ..." (v.11)

Jesus Christ, the resurrected One will be eternally satisfied with what He had accomplished in redeeming sinners for God's kingdom.

Originally posted by josephw
On the contrary, atheists are extremely religious. Can you imagine how much faith is required to believe there is no God?

Think about it.

No, we have the concept of possible change of stance depending on future change of evidence. That makes our minds open to change. You are clearly unable to change no matter WHAT evidence piles up against your religion.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Atheist by definition are free from institutional and religious bias.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

Atheist go to theological seminaries to get DD degrees and become pastors in the institutional religion.

Maybe not at Dallas Theological or Fuller or Gordon Cromwell. But you can bet you'll find some Atheists at a place like Union Theological Seminary or some of the more modernist theological training institutions.

Originally posted by sonship
Flattery will get you nowhere.

Atheist go to theological seminaries to get DD degrees and become pastors in the institutional religion.

Maybe not at Dallas Theological or Fuller or Gordon Cromwell. But you can bet you'll find some Atheists at a place like Union Theological Seminary or some of the more modernist theological training institutions.

Bias:

'Believing
In
Anything
Spiritual.'

Atheists are free of this, wherever they study or teach.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Bias:

'Believing
In
Anything
Spiritual.'

Atheists are free of this, wherever they study or teach.

The world of spiritual according to scripture has those walking out their lives in the flesh
are doing so without God. They cannot grasp God, they cannot please God, they are at
at odds with God to be point of being hostile. That doesn't stop them from studying the
scriptures, acquiring a degree, going into the ministry, serving the poor, or any number
of other things. It doesn't free them of their natural selfish desires either, only the Spirit
of God can do that.


Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Wolfie 666:69
For the mind that is set in service to gods is hostile to Man, for it can justify
whatever the fick it wants, regardless of facts or Man's ingenuity.