Can a theist truely convert to atheism?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“....You seem to see science as the ultimate tool to experience the riddle of existence; ….”

I don't know what you mean by “experience the riddle of existence “ so the above may not be true depending on what you mean.

“...I don't. Science is for me a handy tool to measure and hopefully improve life; not for experience. ...”

I don't know what ...[text shortened]... ation of that concept. ...”

give me a specific example of one of these “limitation”.

".....for it is logically impossible to RATIONALLY answer ALL possible questions no matter how rational the means are of obtaining answers and that is just something we must accept and live with...."
Good, we agree that science is not able to answer all questions. So what do you suggest we do with questions that are important to us? To me it seems science is unable to answer the most important questions.

...and that fact does NOT in any way diminish the value of the answers science DOES rationally answer! To think otherwise would be like thinking aerial photographs can never REALLY give us useful information because they cannot directly see through walls and directly see beneath the surface of the soil etc.
Of course, I just claim it is 2-dimensional (I support your analogy with areal photographs) and is unable to answer some of the most important questions. What we find most important is subjective. So maybe you find the most important questions best answered by science.

"Yes, and I am claiming that when you go inward you will be able to see the limitation of that concept. ...” [my quote]
give me a specific example of one of these “limitation”.
Go inwards and you may get the answer.

Originally posted by souverein
[b]".....for it is logically impossible to RATIONALLY answer ALL possible questions no matter how rational the means are of obtaining answers and that is just something we must accept and live with...."
Good, we agree that science is not able to answer all questions. So what do you suggest we do with questions that are important to us? To me it seems a specific example of one of these “limitation”.[/b]
Go inwards and you may get the answer.[/b]

“....Good, we agree that science is not able to answer all questions. So what do you suggest we do with questions that are important to us? To me it seems science is unable to answer the most important questions. ...”

for those questions that science cannot answer but we want an answer to them -tough! If science cannot answer them then we have no means of RATIONALLY obtaining the answer to them and that is just something we have to accept and live with. Of course, you could, in desperation for answers, resort to all sorts of IRRATIONAL methods to answer such questions such as the use of superstition or illogic, but that would just result in totally baseless unreliable answers.

“...What we find most important is subjective. So maybe you find the most important questions best answered by science. ...”

those that CAN be answered by science, yes. For the rest, I have to forever live with “I don't know”.

“...give me a specific example of one of these “limitation”.
Go inwards and you may get the answer. ….”

I don't know which or what kind of "limitation" you are referring to. So, hummer me; the answer is........?

Originally posted by rwingett
There are no shortage of atheists who used to be theists. In fact, I'd say a sizable percentage of atheists used to be theists. Dan Barker, of the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) is one prominent example. You could probably find several on these forums as well. I was raised as a moderate, cultural Christian. It wasn't until high school that I realiz ...[text shortened]... e was a Christian until well into adulthood. She sang in the choir. But she's an atheist now.

There's a prominant XXXian out there. I suspect the third X is him just being silly.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“....Good, we agree that science is not able to answer all questions. So what do you suggest we do with questions that are important to us? To me it seems science is unable to answer the most important questions. ...”

for those questions that science cannot answer but we want an answer to them -tough! If science cannot answer them then we have no ...[text shortened]... ich or what kind of "limitation" you are referring to. So, hummer me; the answer is........?

For those questions that science cannot answer but we want an answer to them -tough! If science cannot answer them then we have no means of RATIONALLY obtaining the answer to them and that is just something we have to accept and live with. Of course, you could, in desperation for answers, resort to all sorts of [b]IRRATIONAL methods to answer such questions such as the use of superstition or illogic, but that would just result in totally baseless unreliable answers.[/b]
No despair, no superstition and no illogicality. Just sit down, relax and stop thinking for a while. The 'answer' might surprise.

"those that CAN be answered by science, yes. For the rest, I have to forever live with “I don't know”."
Fine, if that is satisfying for you.
Never puzzled by the question "Who am I?"

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
rvsakhadeo

rather than just endlessly putting words in my mouth like this by saying I believe this and that, why don't you have a look at and acknowledge what I really DO believe for a change?

I will give a good try to understand your posts!
In the Science Forum,where I raised a thread on existence of Mind and Soul and submitted my opinion that Scientists are coming around to the view that Mind exists and it exists independent of the body,you denied it. So I thought you do not believe in any such thing as Mind. Neither Kazet who calls Mind a metaphysical entity.
Now you say Mind exists in every one of us ! Good !!

Originally posted by souverein
[b]For those questions that science cannot answer but we want an answer to them -tough! If science cannot answer them then we have no means of RATIONALLY obtaining the answer to them and that is just something we have to accept and live with. Of course, you could, in desperation for answers, resort to all sorts of [b]IRRATIONAL methods to answer such q ...[text shortened]... w”."[/b]
Fine, if that is satisfying for you.
Never puzzled by the question "Who am I?"[/b]

“....No despair, no superstition and no illogicality. Just sit down, relax and STOP thinking for a while. The 'answer' might surprise. ...” (my emphasis)

it would certainly “surprise” me if answers came to me from some other source other than logic (because how can I use logic if I “STOP thinking”? ) or illogic or science or superstition! What other source is there? Name this alternative source that isn't logic/illogic/science/supersticion.

“..."those that CAN be answered by science, yes. For the rest, I have to forever live with “I don't know”." (my quote)
Fine, if that is satisfying for you. ...”

whether I find my limits to my knowledge “satisfying” is irrelevant to the fact there are limits to what I can rationally know. Those limits are whatever they are regardless of how happy or unhappy I am with those limits.

“....Never puzzled by the question "Who am I?" ...”

correct -I know who I am.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I will give a good try to understand your posts!
In the Science Forum,where I raised a thread on existence of Mind and Soul and submitted my opinion that Scientists are coming around to the view that Mind exists and it exists independent of the body,you denied it. So I thought you do not believe in any such thing as Mind. Neither Kazet who calls Mind a metaphysical entity.
Now you say Mind exists in every one of us ! Good !!

1, exuding a tiny minority of crackpots you get in every profession including science, Scientists are NOT “coming around to the view that Mind exists and it exists independent of the body”.

2, I have ALWAYS said mind exists. Mind exists.

3, in case you think otherwise, I have NEVER said mind exists independently of the physical brain (nor do I believe it does).

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I will give a good try to understand your posts!
In the Science Forum,where I raised a thread on existence of Mind and Soul and submitted my opinion that Scientists are coming around to the view that Mind exists and it exists independent of the body,you denied it. So I thought you do not believe in any such thing as Mind. Neither Kazet who calls Mind a metaphysical entity.
Now you say Mind exists in every one of us ! Good !!

I wonder how many of such scientists who work in the field of neuroscience, psychology etc... would hold that view. Indeed I wonder how many scientists out of the entire collection of people that title applies hold the view you say they do. I doubt it's the majority.

One of my friends at uni is the highest achieving mathematician I know of personally - he makes the rest of us look like A-level students; and I'm sure once he's finished his PHD he'll be starting next year he'll go on to be a heavy weight in the mathematical community. Despite this he believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible coupled with nonsense like fiery hell etc... For all his credentials his opinion on the supernatural holds little weight. The same is true for other scientists who pontificate about things beyond their ken.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“....No despair, no superstition and no illogicality. Just sit down, relax and STOP thinking for a while. The 'answer' might surprise. ...” (my emphasis)

it would certainly “surprise” me if answers came to me from some other source other than logic (because how can I use logic if I “STOP thinking”? ) or illogic or science or superstition! What oth ...[text shortened]... its.

“....Never puzzled by the question "Who am I?" ...”

correct -I know who I am.

What a terrific statement ! He has dwarfed all Saints,Philosophers and all Prophets and Incarnations by simply saying that he knows who he is ! Either a state of Bliss which has foillowed from Self Realisation or a case of Delusion !! Tell us Andrew if the " I " that you know is a body only or a body+ mind or a body+mind +soul ? Tell us "who " is he that has sensed this self knowledge !

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
What a terrific statement ! He has dwarfed all Saints,Philosophers and all Prophets and Incarnations by simply saying that he knows who he is ! Either a state of Bliss which has foillowed from Self Realisation or a case of Delusion !! Tell us Andrew if the " I " that you know is a body only or a body+ mind or a body+mind +soul ? Tell us "who " is he that has sensed this self knowledge !

There is nothing world-shattering about having your own identity and therefore “knowing who you are”.

“...Tell us Andrew if the " I " that you know is a body only or a body+ mind or a body+mind +soul ? ...”

strictly speaking “ I “ am just a particular mind. But I still cannot exist without my physical brain for mind is a process of the brain.

“...Tell us "who " is he that has sensed this self knowledge ! ...”

Andrew.


Now I have answered all your questions, how about answering one of mine?

What is the name this alternative source of knowledge you implied existed that isn't logic/illogic/science/superstition?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“....No despair, no superstition and no illogicality. Just sit down, relax and STOP thinking for a while. The 'answer' might surprise. ...” (my emphasis)

it would certainly “surprise” me if answers came to me from some other source other than logic (because how can I use logic if I “STOP thinking”? ) or illogic or science or superstition! What oth ...[text shortened]... its.

“....Never puzzled by the question "Who am I?" ...”

correct -I know who I am.

“....No despair, no superstition and no illogicality. Just sit down, relax and STOP thinking for a while. The 'answer' might surprise. ...” (my emphasis)

it would certainly “surprise” me if answers came to me from some other source other than logic (because how can I use logic if I “STOP thinking”? ) or illogic or science or superstition! What other source is there? Name this alternative source that isn't logic/illogic/science/supersticion.

As you probably noticed I wrote the word answers between quotation marks. I told you how you may get them. Without guarantee. True it is not logical, it supersedes logic. You want to hear a name. Why is that important? I really haven't got one.

“....Never puzzled by the question "Who am I?" ...”
correct -I know who I am.

Well, we seem to differ here. I didn't know and that is why I was not satisfied. Science couldn't give me the answer I was looking for; so I started to explore other avenues of the mind.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
There is nothing world-shattering about having your own identity and therefore “knowing who you are”.

“...Tell us Andrew if the " I " that you know is a body only or a body+ mind or a body+mind +soul ? ...”

strictly speaking “ I “ am just a particular mind. But I still cannot exist without my physical brain for mind is a process of the brain.
...[text shortened]... tive source of knowledge you implied existed that isn't logic/illogic/science/superstition?

You don't get pass marks for answers supplied,since you are still not prepared to admit that besides the body there is something more to you. Such as Life coursing through every cell of your body,the Central Organising Force that is not palpable to instruments.

My source of knowledge is comprising of the many sources of Spiritualism --western as well as eastern.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
You don't get pass marks for answers supplied,since you are still not prepared to admit that besides the body there is something more to you. Such as Life coursing through every cell of your body,the Central Organising Force that is not palpable to instruments.

My source of knowledge is comprising of the many sources of Spiritualism --western as well as eastern.

since you are still not prepared to admit that besides the body there is something more to you.

I just said “I” am a particular MIND. Where did I say that I was just a body?

“....Such as Life coursing through every cell of your body,...”

yes, every cell is “living”. So?

“...the Central Organising Force that is not palpable to instruments. ...”

what are you referring to by “ Central Organising Force” ?

Originally posted by souverein
[b]“....No despair, no superstition and no illogicality. Just sit down, relax and STOP thinking for a while. The 'answer' might surprise. ...” (my emphasis)

it would certainly “surprise” me if answers came to me from some other source other than logic (because how can I use logic if I “STOP thinking”? ) or illogic or science or superstition! What give me the answer I was looking for; so I started to explore other avenues of the mind.[/b]

“...As you probably noticed I wrote the word answers between quotation marks. I told you how you may get them. ….”

yes, you said I should “stop thinking”. Well, I suppose I could hummer you by “stop thinking”....nothing appears to happen -and why should it?

“...True it is not logical, it supersedes logic. You want to hear a name. Why is that important? I really haven't got one. ...”

if you cannot name it nor even say what it is, how the hell am I supposed to know what you are referring to?

“...Science couldn't give me the answer I was looking for; so I started to explore other avenues of the mind. ...”

I take it those “ other avenues of the mind” (whatever they are supposed to be) give rise to irrational belief.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“...As you probably noticed I wrote the word answers between quotation marks. I told you how you may get them. ….”

yes, you said I should “stop thinking”. Well, I suppose I could hummer you by “stop thinking”....nothing appears to happen -and why should it?

“...True it is not logical, it supersedes logic. You want to hear a name. Why is that im ...[text shortened]... other avenues of the mind” (whatever they are supposed to be) give rise to irrational belief.

"yes, you said I should “stop thinking”. Well, I suppose I could hummer you by “stop thinking”....nothing appears to happen -and why should it?"
Did you try? It is in no way easy to command and quiet the mind.

if you cannot name it nor even say what it is, how the hell am I supposed to know what you are referring to?

If you have never been swimming and you ask me what it is I would advice you to jump in the water; you need experience to know what it is about.

I take it those “ other avenues of the mind” (whatever they are supposed to be) give rise to irrational belief.

When you think everything has to be rational or irrational you are mistaken. Art can supersede the rational and irrational. And so can spiritual awareness.

A while ago a thief stole a cast of Rodin's bronze statue The Thinker. He sawed the statue into pieces and sold the pieces for bronze value. For him it was just bronze; and from his point of view he was right.