16 Apr 09
2 edits
How Religion Works:
Mullah Nasrudin used to stand in the street on market-days, to be pointed out as an idiot.
No matter how often people offered him a large and a small coin, he always chose the smaller piece.
One day a kindly man said to him:
'Mullah, you should take the bigger coin. Then you will have more money and people will no longer be able to make a laughing-stock of you.'
'That might be true,' said Nasrudin, 'but if I always take the larger, people will stop offering me money to prove that I am more idiotic than they are. Then I would have no money at all.'
16 Apr 09
Originally posted by SakeHence you are not a very good Messiah. I fully admit that that is not in any way to be taken as evidence that you are not the Messiah or that you do not tell the Truth - just don't expect to have many followers.
You see, I have told you The Truth and yet you are not convinced.
And if you were convinced, then what?
Then I would listen to the Truth that you tell me.
Have you an idea what, or who the Messiah should be about?
No.
Believing is something else then knowing. But what's the turning point that people say I believe you, you are the Prophet, The Messiah, I will follow. And again, when they recognise The Truth, they must have known The Truth already. Then there would be no reason to hype the guy, there would be nothing special about him.
Your argument doesn't add up. While I fully agree that most people that believe in a Messiah usually already know and agree with much of his message and that this may be a contributing factor towards their believing him, this in no way rules out the possibility that he may have new information that his followers do not know and will readily follow.
This is true even of respectable people who are not Messiahs. If I meet someone on these forums who seems to be honest, intelligent and I agree with most of what he says, then when he says something that I did not know before I am inclined to believe him and may benefit from his wisdom. To simply dismiss him as 'nothing special' because I agreed with some of his words that I already knew just doesn't make sense.
If what you are trying to establish is why certain people claiming to be Messiahs have obtained such large followings, then that is far more complicated and often has a lot to do with things other than his message. There are a number of different ways in which religion are spread.
16 Apr 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYes, I asked this beacause you came up with criteria and credentials I should meet. Aparently the profile of the new Messiah has already been made. And I would like to know what you think how that profile looks like.
interesting ?, well its quite banal if you ask me, for right away i would suspect you of being a fake, for you are claiming that you are a messiah without actually knowing what a messiah actually is and when i would ask for verification of your credentials, you would say, what credentials ? confirming my suspicions, infact it would be perfectly obvio ...[text shortened]... ou were a fake and i could go about my business safe in the knowledge that you were a charlatan.
16 Apr 09
3 edits
Originally posted by Sakeyour the messiah and your asking me? shouldn't it be the other way around? i ask you and you provide messianic wisdom? i mean surely you must have some credentials, acts of self sacrifice? utterances of wisdom, a vision for the future, a far reaching and revolutionary ideology? you know, something that at least gives a hint of your messiahaship, otherwise you're just another ordinary dude or even more worrying, given to delusional and grandiose thinking! i personally would like to ask you, what is a messiah? and you would say...... infact why don't you appeal to our learned friend Scriabin, hes still waiting for one 😉
Yes, I asked this beacause you came up with criteria and credentials I should meet. Aparently the profile of the new Messiah has already been made. And I would like to know what you think how that profile looks like.
17 Apr 09
Originally posted by ScriabinOsho?
How Religion Works:
Mullah Nasrudin used to stand in the street on market-days, to be pointed out as an idiot.
No matter how often people offered him a large and a small coin, he always chose the smaller piece.
One day a kindly man said to him:
'Mullah, you should take the bigger coin. Then you will have more money and people will no longer be a ...[text shortened]... e money to prove that I am more idiotic than they are. Then I would have no money at all.'
17 Apr 09
2 edits
Originally posted by ScriabinYou, like Robbie, have a set of preconditions about what a Messiah should be capable of. Why you think the ability to avoid bullets should be one of them (and sufficient at that) I have no idea. Care to elaborate?
very simple to find out the truth of this. stand the guy up in front of a firing squad -- shoot him. If the bullets miss or do not kill him, (search him for body armor first) he's the real deal. Otherwise -- next!
17 Apr 09
Originally posted by Sakeeverything you can do or think comes from your mind -- when that is gone, so are you.
Politics comes from the mind, spirituality doesn't.
I agree that christianity has little in common with spirituality.
there is no evidence of anything external to that which you or anyone else can experience.
there is only testimony -- which can be impeached.
whereas, if a person's mind is gone, or if they entirely die, there is no further way to reach that which comprised their identity.
You and your mind are everything that comprises you -- if you disagree, prove the case.
17 Apr 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadI cite the historical example of the Jewish mystic and false messiah Sabbatai Zevi (1626-76). He proclaimed himself the Messiah, convinced large parts of the Jewish world that this was the case. He attempted to land in Constantinople in 1666, but was captured andimprisoned by the Turkish authorities in 1666. He converted to Islam to escape execution at the hands of a firing squad of archers.
You, like Robbie, have a set of preconditions about what a Messiah should be capable of. Why you think the ability to avoid bullets should be one of them (and sufficient at that) I have no idea. Care to elaborate?
One wonders how things would have turned out had this man allowed himself to be killed by the Sultan's soldiers. Would his death have inspired a new wave of religious enthusiasts? It is said that notwithstanding his conversion, there are still those who follow Sabbatai, disguising their fealty under the cloaks of either Islam or Christianity.