Can you imagine

Originally posted by KellyJay
JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION! Man, are you that scared of a little
give and take!?
Kelly

I don't get you man. What would a little give and take sound like ? Aparently you are talking about drowning in the water, and I thought we were talking about going to Hell. This is not the sports forum.

Originally posted by TerrierJack
Is the same true for you - regardless of your affirmation of faith, could god send you to the fiery pit?

God can do as he pleases. It makes little difference what I think. The real question is, what kind of character the Almighty has? Is he benevolent and merciful or is he unjust? I simply have faith that he is merciful and just.

Originally posted by whodey
God can do as he pleases. It makes little difference what I think. The real question is, what kind of character the Almighty has? Is he benevolent and merciful or is he unjust? I simply have faith that he is merciful and just.

I also feel God must be just or he would not be a God. The confusion comes about when you read the Christian Bible, and hear about a God that get's angry, and dishes out severe punisment on us mere mortals for believing a certain way. The Christian concept of God makes him sound petty and scary, not loving.

Originally posted by buckky
I also feel God must be just or he would not be a God. The confusion comes about when you read the Christian Bible, and hear about a God that get's angry, and dishes out severe punisment on us mere mortals for believing a certain way. The Christian concept of God makes him sound petty and scary, not loving.

But the New Testament is different.

Originally posted by buckky
I don't get you man. What would a little give and take sound like ? Aparently you are talking about drowning in the water, and I thought we were talking about going to Hell. This is not the sports forum.

We are talking about going to hell, and my question will address that,
but it is still just a question on drowning and a life preserver at the
moment, nothing more than that!

If you want to read my mind on how I'm going to move on from that
question fine, but the reality is, you don't seem to be able to handle a
normal conversation without some attempt at seeing the future
moments in what I'm going to say and why. Wouldn't it be better to
just actually have a conversation and you say what you want and I
do the same, then allow each other to make our own points and
arguments, instead of trying to find the other person's argument so
you can say it first?
Kelly

Originally posted by whodey
God can do as he pleases. It makes little difference what I think. The real question is, what kind of character the Almighty has? Is he benevolent and merciful or is he unjust? I simply have faith that he is merciful and just.

I have faith He is merciful and just too, that does not at all mean He
still cannot throw someone into Hell, since to show mercy can mean to
over trump justice, and to show justice is to ignore mercy at times.
Kelly

Originally posted by buckky
I also feel God must be just or he would not be a God. The confusion comes about when you read the Christian Bible, and hear about a God that get's angry, and dishes out severe punisment on us mere mortals for believing a certain way. The Christian concept of God makes him sound petty and scary, not loving.

Sin is the only thing that will cause someone to judged guilty.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I have faith He is merciful and just too, that does not at all mean He
still cannot throw someone into Hell, since to show mercy can mean to
over trump justice, and to show justice is to ignore mercy at times.
Kelly

Well it's not too ignore it always, you can have both, but sometimes you can have justice and no mercy you are right about that.

Originally posted by daniel58
But the New Testament is different.

Same God, and it isn't different.
Kelly

Originally posted by whodey
God can do as he pleases. It makes little difference what I think. The real question is, what kind of character the Almighty has? Is he benevolent and merciful or is he unjust? I simply have faith that he is merciful and just.

"Just" for me (because without presuming to speak for a deity (or anyone else) you surely must have a definition of that word for yourself or your words were meaningless) means that no one goes to the fiery pit who is thinking, speaking and acting honestly according to their conscience so it must mean that it doesn't matter what you profess to believe. If you are honest then you have nothing to fear - no omnipotent sociopath will hunt you down to hurt you. Agreed?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Same God, and it isn't different.
Kelly

No but Christ redeemed us of our sins, so we can ask Him for forgiveness, He will forgive us, in the Old Testament they couldn't do that.

Originally posted by KellyJay
We are talking about going to hell, and my question will address that,
but it is still just a question on drowning and a life preserver at the
moment, nothing more than that!

If you want to read my mind on how I'm going to move on from that
question fine, but the reality is, you don't seem to be able to handle a
normal conversation without some attem nts, instead of trying to find the other person's argument so
you can say it first?
Kelly

Your question was

If you were drowning and someone threw you a life preserver, and
you rejected it and died, would your death be because you drowned
or that you rejected the life preserver?

I suppose it could sort of be both, in as much as the death was one by drowning and the rejection of the life preserver facilitated the death by drowning.

How is this an apt analogy? I can think of several things that detract from its being apt. Here are some right off the top of my head. For one, God is the one who threw us all into the pool knowing beforehand that we cannot swim on our own, so to speak. For two, for someone who is very powerful, it may be that just offering a life preserver does not exhaust his duties in such a situation. Even if someone failed to take the preserver (for whatever reason) perhaps the one who offered the preserver still has the duty to get in there and save the person by other means if they know they have the power to do so. And maybe if he is very powerful and knowledgeable, then perhaps he has responsibility for not allowing persons to get into situations that promote their death by drowning in the first place. For three, you are representing "belief in" Jesus as something that one has under his direct control. For instance, you are saying that one's not believing in Jesus is like willful refusal. This may be a very bad analogy, considering that belief is something that is not under one's active control in such a sense. For example, if one is atheist with respect to a certain conception of God because he has been brought into the belief that such God doesn't exist on the basis of argument and evidential considerations; and if he is nevertheless mistaken and will go to hell because of this; then how is that situation anything like willfully refusing a life preserver?

Originally posted by daniel58
No but Christ redeemed us of our sins, so we can ask Him for forgiveness, He will forgive us, in the Old Testament they couldn't do that.

Same God in the Old and New Testament, that is my point, and the
same God who was in the Old Testament setup and put into place the
New Testament. Point being that God's wrath is something to be
avoided, because He again will show no mercy, or complete mercy, and
no one can pull us out of His hands either way.
Kelly

Originally posted by LemonJello
Your question was

If you were drowning and someone threw you a life preserver, and
you rejected it and died, would your death be because you drowned
or that you rejected the life preserver?

I suppose it could sort of be both, in as much as the death was one by drowning and the rejection of the life preserver facilitated the death by drown ause of this; then how is that situation anything like willfully refusing a life preserver?

What kills the drowning man, the fact he drowned, correct?

The life preserver offered was choice to make, but it was his drowning
that killed him. If the choice was not there he still drowns, correct?

The fact he had a choice puts some responsibility about his death on
his own head, but that is all.

Now Hell and death are coming to man because of man’s sin against
God, a choice offered or not will not change the fact that man’s sin
has put man in that position, it is a good thing a life preserver has
been offered to us by God, its rejection only leaves us where we are
and like the drowning man where we are isn’t a good place to be.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
We are talking about going to hell, and my question will address that,
but it is still just a question on drowning and a life preserver at the
moment, nothing more than that!

If you want to read my mind on how I'm going to move on from that
question fine, but the reality is, you don't seem to be able to handle a
normal conversation without some attem ...[text shortened]... nts, instead of trying to find the other person's argument so
you can say it first?
Kelly

I know what your thinking now. You think I know what your thinking and it bothers you. You must think a life preserver is nothing more than a way out of Torment. If you keep thinking like this you could end up in need of a life jacket.