@sonship saidAccording to your doctrine a man gets eternal life which cannot be revoked when he professes his faith in Christ. Judas was a disciple, he was given the gift of the Holy Spirit. According to you he will be in the Kingdom of God.
@Rajk999Judas Iscariot's promise of eternal life was revoked.
Where ?
Find me a passage where where Judas ever referred to Jesus as "Lord".
Thankfully Paul cleared up that nonsense doctrine:
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThis one is simple to explain but sonship in his usual verbose manner is making a mess of it.
"'The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable' (Rom 11:29). The birthright of Esau was revoked, as was the calling of the House of Eli. If 'many are called, but few are chosen' (Matt 22:14), then the calling is revocable."
Paul in Romans 11 is explaining that God has CALLED THE GENTILES, and put them on equal footing with the Jews. Paul makes it clear that this calling of the Gentiles as a whole, is not going to be revoked. This has nothing to do with individuals whose calling can be revoked based on their behavior.
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This was the statement.
• Jesus Says A Call Is Revocable, But Paul Says It Is Irrevocable.
I proved that "calling" of the theocratic Israel was Irrevocable.
I did it by comparing its irrevocable nature Matt. 23:29 with Romans 11.
In the sign of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21,22 a glimpse into eternity shows God's faithfulness to Israel. The names of the twelve tribes of Israel are seen in connection with her gates (Rev. 21:12). And the names of the twelve apostles are seen in connection with her foundations (Rev.21:14).
As for individual callings of someone unto eternal redemption:
God calling doesn't mean God cannot temporarily discipline one who is called.
Hebrews 12:6 says "For whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.".
So a son of the Father who cannot be snatched out of the Father's hand in an irrevocable way in John 10:28,29 certainly will still be scourged and disciplined by the Father who has received him as the need arises.
The book of Hebrews (which I take as probably written by Paul) has five such serious warnings of disciplining of called sons of the Father. There is no wonder that most of chapter 12 is dedicated to God dealing with His called sons.
Ie. "It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons. For what son is there whom the father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all sons have become partakers, the you are illegitimate and not sons." (12:7,8)
All genuine sons of God are recipients of the Father's discipline.
He deals with His sons not by revoking their calling to eternal life but by disciplining that they may partake of His holiness.
"For they [earthly fathers] disciplined for a few days as it seemed good to them; but He, for what is profitable that we might partake of His holiness."(v.10)
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In the same chapter (Hebrews 11) about God disciplining His sons the writer of Hebrews speaks of Esau, an Old Testament figure who lost his birthright because he regarded it cheaply. As the firstborn son he should have had the certain rights of the eldest firstborn son. He lost it under God's sovereignty to Jacob.
Esau is put forth as a negative example of one who forfeited his weightier right for a temporary comparatively frivolous pleasure.
"Looking carefully lest anyone fall away from the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and through this many be defiled;
Lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one mealk gave up his own birthright. For you know that also afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no place for repentance, even though he sought it with tears." (vs. 17,18)
I count this as Esau forfeiting a certain blessing. I don't regard that as God revoking Esau's salvation. The previous nine or ten verses in the same chapter have been about God the Father's discipline of sons whom He has received. From verse 5 through verse 13 or 14 are all about enduing under divine discipline.
So context logically reveals the discussion is continuing with using Esau as an example of one under the Old Testament discipline or losing his birthright.
To God's calling the one called is to make that irrevocable calling more secure through cooperation.
"Therefore, brothers, be the more diligent to make your calling and selection firm, for doing these things you shall by no means ever stumble." (2 Pet. 1:10)
The CALLED should diligently to make their calling and selection firm through faithfulness and cooperation. Then the next verses says that their entrance into the eternal kingdom of Christ would be richly supplied rather than poorly.
"For in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly and bountifully supplied to you." (v.11)
Of course Christ and His apostles Peter and Paul agree.
To being called the called should add faithfulness.
"These will make war with with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful ..." (Rev. 17:18a)
Called + Chosen + FAITHFUL is specified here. There is no such thing as "Well I am called. So I do not have to be faithful." Or "Well, I was called but since I was not chosen I don't need to be faithful."
Those who are called by God and chosen by God should still through His grace ADD to this their FAITHFULNESS.
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@sonship saidYou have problem sonship. Something is stopping you from answering a question or dealing with an issue, concisely, accurately and in clear unambiguous language. If you read the teachings of Christ you will see that his statements are crystal clear and simple for all to read and understand. The fact that you lack this ability means you have deliberately distanced yourself from Christ in more ways that one. This has led to your muddled thinking, confused language and grossly false doctrines.
In the same chapter (Hebrews 11) about God disciplining His sons the writer of Hebrews speaks of Esau, an Old Testament figure who lost his birthright because he regarded it cheaply. As the firstborn son he should have had the certain rights of the eldest firstborn son. He lost it under God's sovereignty to Jacob.
Esau is put forth as a negative examp ...[text shortened]... alled by God and chosen by God should still through His grace ADD to this their FAITHFULNESS.
The issue here is that God will not revoke the calling of the Gentiles as Paul stated. The Gentiles are called to the Kingdom of God the same as the Jews and Jews and Gentiles are now on equal footing. However, God can and will revoke the calling, the salvation, the eternal life of all who displease Him with their evil works. This simple fact was clearly stated by Christ and all the Apostles.
Why are you trying to avoid this issue and instead writing a ton-load of garbage.
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Moving to the next so-called Contradiction between Christ and His apostle (which actually does not exist).
These "contradictions" are fast and loose and designed mostly for non-readers of the New Testament, at least with adequate depth.
• Jesus Says Some Are Righteous, But Paul Says It Is Impossible.
I will wait for evidence of this to be submitted.
Where is the contradiction hunter's evidence of this discrepancy?
Of course the righteous I immediately think of Christ mentioning are righteous because of justification. His salvation has made them righteous.
"Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father." (Matt. 13:43)
They have been made righteous by God who has justified and sanctified them without and within and made them sons of God - "the kingdom of their Father".
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• Jesus Says Some Are Righteous, But Paul Says It Is Impossible.
What other righteous would the objection hunt for? I don't know. Perhaps he means "the righteous" of the teaching of Matthew 25:46 about the sheep and the goat Gentile nations before the Son of Man's throne of glory.
"And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:46).
These righteous have also been justified by God because of their treatment of the persecuted saints during the great tribulation.
"Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me a drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in, Naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when have we seen You hungry and have fed You, or thirsty and have given You a drink? And when have we seen You a stranger and have taken You in, or naked and have clothed You? And when have we seen You sick or in prison and have come to You?
And the King will answer them and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me." (Matt. 25:34-40)
I have dealt with this passage many times on this Forum in the past. Those who cannot be persuaded will simply bring it up again and again. So this explanation is BRIEF. And if it is the first time you saw it it will probably leave you with questions.
This judgment is not the last judgement. This is a judgment of living Gentile nations who passed through the time of the great tribulation. Antichrist has established himself as worthy of worship to the world. And Jews and Christians are terribly persecuted.
Not able to buy, sell, or receive medical help will the hungry and thirsty people reserved by God through that time - reserved Jews and believing Christians. Because they cannot buy or sell or eat or live in peace but only flee from place to place under the intense persecution of Antichrist, they will be in a terrible destitute situation.
God will be shaking the universe. Men on earth with a conscience left and who do not worship the Antichrist will help these persecuted people [yet not knowing that they are down to the least of them are the Lord's brothers.] For this help they will be pronounced righteous by the Elder Brother Jesus. And they will be allowed to be the surviving nations over whom the sons of God reign for the millennial kingdom.
They have responded to something called "an eternal gospel" preached not by men but supernaturally from the air by angelic voices in the midst of a time of unprecedented natural upheaval of nature and supernatural calamities. Only the hardest of the hard will not understand that God the true CREATOR is turning the universe upside down as a anti-testimony to Antichrist's claim that the world should worship him.
These sheep whom God justifies as righteous are sparred by Him because they respond to "an eternal gospel" (Rev. 14:6,7) and follow their God given conscience to assist the persecuted brothers of the Son of Man down to the least of them.
In the darkest hours of the great tribulation the angelic voice announces supernaturally an eternal gospel to fear the Creator.
"And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters." (Rev. 14:6-7).
Those who fear God the judging Creator during this terrible world judgment will be the sheep who are deemed righteous and transferred into the next age. They are the saved and transferred nations brought into the millennial kingdom. The sons of God will reign over them and the Jews will be priests leading them to worship the God of Israel according to many Old Testament prophecies about that age.
This is as brief as I can make it. This is as concise as I can explain this.
And I don't know what other righteous ones the objector means unless he gives me an example.
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Beware of wild name calling.
Beware of genetic fallacy. Ie. "Oh, this is Witness Lee's teaching so it has to be wrong."
Beware of Rajk999 who is not even clear about the deity of Jesus Christ as the unique and only God become a man.
Beware of his self-righteous bringing people into bondage with his "another Jesus" teaching of pseudo Jehovah Witness legalism.
15 Jan 21
@sonship saidBeware of putting lots of effort in to explain when the other person isn't listening Sonship.
Beware of wild name calling.
Beware of genetic fallacy. Ie. "Oh, this is Witness Lee's teaching so it has to be wrong."
Beware of Rajk999 who is not even clear about the deity of Jesus Christ as the unique and only God become a man.
Beware of his self-righteous bringing people into bondage with his "another Jesus" teaching of pseudo Jehovah Witness legalism.
I see it a lot in this forum and Debates.
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According to your doctrine a man gets eternal life which cannot be revoked when he professes his faith in Christ.
Whoever receives the Son receives "the life".
"And this is the testimony, that God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God dows not have the life." (1 John 5:11,12)
I asked you to show me where Judas confessed Jesus as his Lord. You have not done so yet.
Judas was a disciple, he was given the gift of the Holy Spirit. According to you he will be in the Kingdom of God.
I asked for you to show Judas confessing Jesus as Lord. You have not or cannot so far.
Now I ask you why I should teach Jesus received the Holy Spirit. In John 20 where Jesus breathed into the disciples after His resurrection and said "Receive the Holy Spirit" was Judas among them ?
No. Judas was not among them whom John's Gospel says Jesus breathed into them saying "Receive the Holy Spirit". (John 20:19-25)
Thomas was not among them either. However in verses 26-33 Thomas WAS there and confessed Jesus as his Lord and his God. Surely he received the Holy Spirit.
I don't teach Judas either received the Holy Spirit or will be in the kingdom of God. At best your reading comprehension hasn't paid attention. AT worst you dishonestly gossip about what you would LIKE me to say I teach.
Thankfully Paul cleared up that nonsense doctrine:
No instance of Judas confessing Jesus as Lord yet.
Neither an explanation why you won't do so.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
I asked you to show me Judas confessing Jesus as Lord.
You can't and so switch subjects to Hebrews 6. And I have proved a receiver of the Holy Spirit may be disciplined by the Father and even severely so.
Those who receive the Holy Spirit do so for ETERNITY. Says Jesus.
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him ... " (See John 14:16,17)
HOW LONG will the Spirit of reality, the another Comforter be with the believers?
"that He may be with you forever" (v.16)
He is not on loan. And He is not taken away from the believers because Rajk999 thinks they do not come up to his standard.
Now, can a believer be a partaker of the Holy Spirit and be latter disciplined or punished. Yes. In Hebrews some Christians sought to return to Judiasm foolishly and begin animal sacrifices again because of doubt in the finished work of Christ.
The writer of Hebrews warns them that this will have disciplining consequences. Yet these consequences are short of having eternal redemption revoked.
We've been through this more times then I can remember on this Forum.
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@sonship saidPaul says that none are righteous under the law, that obedience to the law justifies no one before God, and that the law was a curse. (Rom 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one). - Rom 3:19 - Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
I will wait for evidence of this to be submitted.
Jesus however says there were many who were righteous under the law.
Mt 13:17 - For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Mt 23:3 - That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mt 23:29 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous.
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@sonship saidElizabeth and Zechariah, the parents of John the Baptist: Lu 1:6 - And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
This is as brief as I can make it. This is as concise as I can explain this.
And I don't know what other righteous ones the objector means unless he gives me an example.
Simeon, who waited to see the Messiah: Lu 2:25 - And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Joseph the husband of Mary, and Mary herself who was chosen to be Jesus’ mother: Mt 1:19 - Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example,was minded to put her away privily.
John the Baptist: Mr 6:20 - For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.
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@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Here again is the assertion:
• Jesus Says Some Are Righteous, But Paul Says It Is Impossible.
Now your evidence:
Paul says that none are righteous under the law, that obedience to the law justifies no one before God, and that the law was a curse. (Rom 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one). - Rom 3:19 - Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Okay. We praise God for this clear word from the Apostle Paul.
Jesus however says there were many who were righteous under the law.
Mt 13:17 - For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Jesus referred to righteous men who were COMPARATIVELY righteous in relation to OTHERS of their generation. Obedient prophets and those who believed them were COMPARATIVELY righteous in comparison with the majority of their contemporaries who disbelieved and disobeyed the prophets.
Since they believed also in the animal sacrifices to atone for their sins, they looked FORWARD to Christ's justification by His once and for all sacrifice replacing forever all the animal sacrifices.
1.) They were righteous not absolutely but in comparison to their contemporaries.
2.) They were righteous in that they looked forward to Christ's justification by obeying the command to offer atoning animal sacrifices to Jehovah. The typology was replaced by the reality in the offering of Jesus Christ once and for all.
"And Jesus said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One - God." (Mark 10:18) .
According to Jesus, Who is absolutely good? Only God is.
So only God is absolutely righteous too.
According to Jesus everyone who believes into Him will not be condemned.
"For God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but that they world might be saved through Him.
He who believes into Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:17,18)
1.) The whole world needs saving from God's condemnation for sins.
2.) Jesus came to save the whole world and everyone in the world.
3.) Even the comparatively righteous to one another are under condemnation for not believing in the only begotten Son of God.
The Lamb of God came to take away the unrighteous sins of the world not just the unrighteous sins of some. "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away THE SIN OF THE WORLD." (John 3:29)
John the Baptist included himself for he said he was not worthy to untie even the sandals of Jesus. "He who is coming after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie." (John 1:27) In other words John the Baptist knew that compared to Christ he was not righteous enough and not worthy.
Again, John the Baptist tried to prevent Jesus from allowing Himself to be baptized by John. "Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John to be baptized by him. But John tried to prevent Him, saying, It is I who have need of being baptized by You, and You come to me?" (Matt. 3:13,14)
John did not consider himself as righteous as Christ, the Lamb of God Who came to take away the whole WORLD'S sin.
Mt 23:3 - That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Same as above. Comparatively so, in relation to others of their generation, they were called righteous.
Abel, for example, offered the blood sacrifice, This means he knew he needed atonement for his sins. Self righteous Cain hated Abel jealously and murdered him. So the righteous blood of the repentant Abel means he was comparatively right with God more so then the murderer Cain of his generation.
Zecharias's righteous blood would be along the same principle.
Mt 23:29 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous.
Same as above.
Jesus refers to the comparatively righteous and their sepulchers.
Those who believed the prophets were comparatively righteous to those who persecuted them and disbelieved them.
I'll examine your other example verses latter.
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Elizabeth and Zechariah, the parents of John the Baptist: Lu 1:6 - And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Elizabeth and Zechariah were in need of the salvation of the Messiah they hoped for too as so also John the Baptist.
Zechariah who is said to have "walked in all the commandments" was struck dumb because of the offense of not believing the message of the angel Gabriel concerning what God was about to do. (Luke 1:19,20) His unbelief must have been a transgression against God.
Nothing explicit is said about Elizabeth concerning any failure. I am positive that she felt herself a sinner in need of the Savior that was coming as God had promised. Unlike Ghost's belief, I don't think Elizabeth thought "Why I am righteous and do not NEED any Savior".
Simeon, who waited to see the Messiah: Lu 2:25 - And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
The same applied to the righteous (comparatively so) Simeon. Like Elizabeth I am sure he did not think he had NO NEED of the God sent Savior Messiah who was coming.
Joseph the husband of Mary, and Mary herself who was chosen to be Jesus’ mother: Mt 1:19 - Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example was minded to put her away privily.
Jesus came to take away the sin of the world. Nothing suggests that Joseph was an exception. Joseph was also part of "the world" along with Elizabeth, Simeon, and John the Baptist.
John the Baptist: Mr 6:20 - For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.
I already showed the the "just" and "holy" prophet John the Baptist did not DARE to consider himself as righteous as the Son of God before Whom he came to announce.