Christianity and logic

Originally posted by RJHinds
All the new discoveries in different sciences keep proving that the Holy Bible has been right all along. Scientists once said that the universe always existed, now they have come around to bellieve it had a beginning, which Genesis had proclaimed all along. However, they eill not accept an intelligent God for the cause of the beginning.

Doesn't scripture teach ever learning, but...never coming to the knowledge?
It isn't combat us against them, it is just us...our war isn't with each other!
Christ died for us all, we should love them, be kind since that is what God does to us.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Not much hope in talking to you I guess.

So much for August uh!

I'm starting to see what people mean when they say you dodge posts that are difficult to answer in light of your faith. My post couldn't have been worded any more respectfully, and didn't insult you or your beliefs. I gave two posts thoroughly explaining why Christians may not be completely thinking for themselves. My post contained a very important question that you apparently will not answer, as per your reputation.

Originally posted by vivify
I'm starting to see what people mean when they say you dodge posts that are difficult to answer in light of your faith. My post couldn't have been worded any more respectfully, and didn't insult you or your beliefs. I gave two posts thoroughly explaining why Christians may not be completely thinking for themselves. My post contained a very important question that you apparently will not answer, as per your reputation.

I'm being told by you that I'm not thinking for myself, and that is respect, I'd say that has
more to do with how you view my beliefs negatively, there is no respect there. So go ahead
and accuse me of whatever you like, I guess since I cannot think for myself I must be in
the wrong according to you.

You are very insulting here, just so you know.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?

(A random oxymoron, brought to you by Ghost of a Duke).

Not so random, it seems to me. A point therein.

Originally posted by moonbus
The technical term for it is “perspectivism”, which means that a what person sees is at least in part determined by his presuppositions. (Which is not to be confused with “relativism”, if by relativism one means that whatever anyone thinks is true is true (which is incoherent).)

Example: When Galileo looked through his telescope at the moons ...[text shortened]... t.)

For this reason, theists and non-theists often find themselves talking at cross purposes.

The technical term for it is “perspectivism”, which means that a what person sees is at least in part determined by his presuppositions. (Which is not to be confused with “relativism”, if by relativism one means that whatever anyone thinks is true is true (which is incoherent).)

Inescapably so.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm being told by you that I'm not thinking for myself, and that is respect, I'd say that has
more to do with how you view my beliefs negatively, there is no respect there. So go ahead
and accuse me of whatever you like, I guess since I cannot think for myself I must be in
the wrong according to you.

You are very insulting here, just so you know.

I've always been of the opinion that you think for yourself. But, I think that you duck certain controversies because you would rather be seen as a peacemaker. Both RJHinds now and RBHill before him have peppered the forums with such ludicrous assertions that most Christians avoid these forums so they do not face the shame of such ignorance in the name of Jesus.

You, KellyJay, do not shy away from reading and posting in these forums. Nor do you post noxious videos or other packets of other peoples' predigested nonsense. Rather, you answer each question in your own words with your own thoughts. Sometimes, it seems to me, you carefully consider what others are saying.

I would not agree with an accusation that you do not think for yourself, but I do think that you dodge issues that make you uncomfortable. I also think that you avoid saying things that might create discomfort for the self-professing Christians who post here. I think the discomfort of learning that many true Christians disagree with them would be a blessing.

One of my pastors many years ago was fond of saying that his job was, "to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comforted." Perhaps it would not be ungodly to create a little affliction for those who are so grossly misrepresenting the truths of the Bible with their literalism and anti-science.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm being told by you that I'm not thinking for myself, and that is respect, I'd say that has
more to do with how you view my beliefs negatively, there is no respect there. So go ahead
and accuse me of whatever you like, I guess since I cannot think for myself I must be in
the wrong according to you.

You are very insulting here, just so you know.

First of all, I never said Christians can't think for themselves. Those were your words. To quote you:

"You really think that Christians are brain dead people who are brainwashed and unable to
think for themselves?"

Again, I never insulted Christians or said that they can't think for themselves. You put those words in my mouth. You first said this, not me. I just went with what you said because I didn't feel like saying extra words to correct you .

Secondly, I was speaking about Christians in general, not specifically you. So saying "I'm being told by you that I'm not thinking from myself" is wrongly flipping this conversation into a personal one. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Let me ask one last time: given that the opposition from Christians to evolution is largely due to beliefs rather than scientifically supported arguments, isn't that an indication that Christians are following what they're told rather than looking at evolution objectively?

Originally posted by Wulebgr
I've always been of the opinion that you think for yourself. But, I think that you duck certain controversies because you would rather be seen as a peacemaker. Both RJHinds now and RBHill before him have peppered the forums with such ludicrous assertions that most Christians avoid these forums so they do not face the shame of such ignorance [i]in the name of ...[text shortened]... o are so grossly misrepresenting the truths of the Bible with their literalism and anti-science.

I do not have an anti-science view, I love it actually, but that said I see limitations within it.
I don't think that it is the end all be all for understanding the universe we are in, it has blind
spots that we *people* fill in when we cannot really say we know this means that.

I don't enter into certain controversies because I see no benefit to them win or lose.

I do not believe I dodge issues I'm uncomfortable with, I may see them as I do those I see
no benefit in. I also don't go after other believers, that gets done here by others who think
insulting you nicely is not actually insulting you.

I do from time to time disagree with a fellow believer here, but that said typically there are
enough people bashing them I don't want to jump on the band wagon doing the same. I
believe there are a few who call themselves Christians that actually take delight in doing
that, I'm not one of them.

With respect to the Bible and literalism, I do believe it is possible to view scripture as
correct and still believe in Science, I just don't think that science can actually prove
the truths in scripture if they are supernatural events, there it is blind. Not the fault of
science or those that just believe in it, but I believe it to be a reality.

Originally posted by vivify
I'm starting to see what people mean when they say you dodge posts that are difficult to answer in light of your faith. My post couldn't have been worded any more respectfully, and didn't insult you or your beliefs. I gave two posts thoroughly explaining why Christians may not be completely thinking for themselves. My post contained a very important question that you apparently will not answer, as per your reputation.

"When Christians collectively deny findings by scientists that have been arrived at through over a century of exhaustive study, evidence and peer review, simply because it contradicts the Bible--wouldn't that be a prime example of Christians not thinking for themselves?

What I just said isn't slamming Christians; it's simply the truth."

I'm a Christian so when you make the claim that Christians do not think for themselves
I'm included in this. When I discuss evolution which I have admitted repeatedly I believe
in it, I give reasons *my thoughts* on why I hold the beliefs I do.

You may insult me respectfully, but it is still being insulted.

My faith does not shut down my brain, and I'm not spoon fed by anyone what I should and
should not think. I give my reasons for why I believe the things I do and reject those things
I do.

I do not care if you did not intend to be insulting, but you were and still are!

If you want to suggest that anyone who holds an idea because someone else is telling
them they should, then you are no different than Christians when you read the peer review
papers. You are following a different herd, but you following one!

I can see findings of peer review papers, agree that the science of them is spot on, and
still think they could be wrong, due to science blind spots. I have no issue what so ever
saying the earth is billions of years old according to science, and it very well could be, my
most honest answer is I don't know how old it is. You want me to accept science as the
only manner in which we can grasp truth and reality, you are putting your faith in a
process that has to change every time something is discovered. Science is ever learning
and coming into knowledge, nothing in it can really be settle if something else becomes
accepted that changes our views.

Are their Christians that just believe in the Bible and reject out of hand anything that
science says, sure just as there are those that reject the Bible out of hand for whatever
reasons they have. The world is filled with people, not all the best the brightest, and some
who think they are, are not.

Originally posted by KellyJay


I'm a Christian so when you make the claim that Christians do not think for themselves
I'm included in this. When I discuss evolution which I have admitted repeatedly I believe
in it, I give reasons *my thoughts* on why I hold the beliefs I do.

I have a basis for what I'm saying that isn't rooted in any malicious intent. If you don't believe me, here are the words of Dr. Kurt Wise, a Christian scientist who has a Ph.D from Harvard:

“I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. If all the evidence in  the universe turns against creationism, I would be the  first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate.” – Dr. Kurt Wise

Isn't this objective evidence of brainwashing?

Originally posted by vivify
I have a basis for what I'm saying that isn't rooted in any malicious intent. If you don't believe me, here are the words of Dr. Kurt Wise, a Christian scientist who has a Ph.D from Harvard:

“I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. If all the evidence in  the universe turns against creationism, I would be the  ...[text shortened]... d of God seems to indicate.” – Dr. Kurt Wise

Isn't this objective evidence of brainwashing?

It really does not matter what your intent is! What you have said was that I and all other
Christians do not think for ourselves, which is insulting.

The very fact that you think anyone who holds a Christian view from you has fallen into this
brainwashing tells me that you are not at all looking at this with a open mind. So can we
say that you too are suffering from brainwashing, you view a large group of people as
less than if you really think they cannot think for themselves.

Originally posted by KellyJay
It really does not matter what your intent is! What you have said was that I and all other
Christians do not think for ourselves, which is insulting.

The very fact that you think anyone who holds a Christian view from you has fallen into this
brainwashing tells me that you are not at all looking at this with a open mind. So can we
say that you too a ...[text shortened]... view a large group of people as
less than if you really think they cannot think for themselves.

I don't believe all Christians are brainwashed. Not all Christians are creationists, and not all Christians have a fundamentalist view of the bible. In fact, many Christians don't even take the bible literally. Knowing this, why would I claim "all" Christians are brainwashed? I do not hold the view that all, or even most Christians don't think for themselves. So I hope you're no longer offended.

Still, I do believe that many Christians don't think for themselves, like the Christian scientist I mentioned.

Now that this is out of the way, will you answer any one of my questions? Like whether or not that Christian scientists seems to be brainwashed?

Originally posted by vivify
I don't believe all Christians are brainwashed. Not all Christians are creationists, and not all Christians have a fundamentalist view of the bible. In fact, many Christians don't even take the bible literally. Knowing this, why would I claim "all" Christians are brainwashed? I do not hold the view that all, or even most Christians don't think for themsel ...[text shortened]... any one of my questions? Like whether or not that Christian scientists seems to be brainwashed?

"Like whether or not that Christian scientists seems to be brainwashed?"

Not any more than anyone not a Christian who believes science has all the answers.
Do you think listening to one point of view is all it takes to be brainwashed?

Originally posted by vivify
I don't believe all Christians are brainwashed. Not all Christians are creationists, and not all Christians have a fundamentalist view of the bible. In fact, many Christians don't even take the bible literally. Knowing this, why would I claim "all" Christians are brainwashed? I do not hold the view that all, or even most Christians don't think for themsel ...[text shortened]... any one of my questions? Like whether or not that Christian scientists seems to be brainwashed?

You know I do think your still pushing an insulting view...now that I read your statement
again. The Christians that reject the Bible are good, or those that take the Word of God
very seriously are brainwashed. Why don't you just stop while your behind.

Originally posted by Wulebgr
One of my pastors many years ago was fond of saying that his job was, "to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comforted." Perhaps it would not be ungodly to create a little affliction for those who are so grossly misrepresenting the truths of the Bible with their literalism and anti-science.

We have Rajk for that. He's all about showing other Christians "the error of their ways", as if such exists.

But even he has not a word for the literalists and the anti-science crowd.

/eyeroll