08 Oct 08
Originally posted by Rajk999If both are right you still think people should not talk about them?
At the other extreme they promise eternal life and paradise if you simply say you accept Christ with your mouth.
Both are wrong and both are designed to draw masses of gullible weak-minded people into church so that pastors can get fat and rich. Because once they have you in church either through fear or empty promises of easy salvation, there is the constant exhortation to give and donate, not to the poor and needy but to the already rich church.
Kelly
08 Oct 08
Originally posted by Rajk999This is what is taught in churches.
The expression 'just with your mouth' is my own.
It means to proclaim your faith in Christ, and you will be saved.
This is what is taught in churches.
Christians dont use that expression
But if you dont follow the commandments of Christ it is 'just with their mouth' that you believe in Christ.
Me thinks it is more important what the scriptures have to say about it.
08 Oct 08
Originally posted by Rajk999I think the relevant N.T. scripture is Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
At the other extreme they promise eternal life and paradise if you simply say you accept Christ with your mouth.
Both are wrong and both are designed to draw masses of gullible weak-minded people into church so that pastors can get fat and rich. Because once they have you in church either through fear or empty promises of easy salvation, there is the constant exhortation to give and donate, not to the poor and needy but to the already rich church.
I have heard Christians say that.
08 Oct 08
Originally posted by muppymanI know the verse.
I think the relevant N.T. scripture is Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
I have heard Christians say that.
Following one verse does not lead to salvation.
You have to see the whole picture about what gives salvation .
13 Oct 08
There is no concept of hell, purgatory, eternal torment and damnation for the wicked or ungodly anywhere in the original Hebrew scriptures nor in the Greek scriptures, the source of these present day church teachings seem to stem from a bastardisation of the original Hebrew/Greek words for the common grave of mankind, as a direct result of inaccurate translation from the original languages. the fact that many churches still cling to this superstition is evidence of their own inability to understand, accurately the scriptures which the purport to support! I defy anyone to prove otherwise!
13 Oct 08
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou are right. Put simply hell is the grave.
There is no concept of hell, purgatory, eternal torment and damnation for the wicked or ungodly anywhere in the original Hebrew scriptures nor in the Greek scriptures, the source of these present day church teachings seem to stem from a bastardisation of the original Hebrew/Greek words for the common grave of mankind, as a direct result of inaccurate ...[text shortened]... tand, accurately the scriptures which the purport to support! I defy anyone to prove otherwise!
Unfortunately Christ came along and confused the concept with the following story. Some say it cannot be literal and its a parable. But every parable has a literal and a spiritual interpretation. Whats your view.
Luke 16 : 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
13 Oct 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999there is absolutely no confusion whatsoever, for example that the parable was clearly allegorical is seen in hyperbole used by Christ, for example, would dipping ones finger and placing it on someones tongue relieve them if they were literally in torment? there is no mention that the richman was wicked, merely that he was rich, there is no mention of why Lazarus should get salvation other than his wretched state, its purely allegorical. now the question is, to whom is it addressed and why?
You are right. Put simply hell is the grave.
Unfortunately Christ came along and confused the concept with the following story. Some say it cannot be literal and its a parable. But every parable has a literal and a spiritual interpretation. Whats your view.
Luke 16 : 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sor ar not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
13 Oct 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieBut in what other parable of Christ does He mention the specific name of someone ?
there is absolutely no confusion whatsoever, for example that the parable was clearly allegorical is seen in hyperbole used by Christ, for example, would dipping ones finger and placing it on someones tongue relieve them if they were literally in torment? there is no mention that the richman was wicked, merely that he was rich, there is no mention o ...[text shortened]... s wretched state, its purely allegorical. now the question is, to whom is it addressed and why?
In no parable that I can recall does Jesus give a name to someone in the allegory.
( I agree that Hades or Hell is the grave or the realm of the dead ).
14 Oct 08
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillThats correct, so what position/idea does Abraham have in the eyes of the Jews of Christs time? Who could he have been representative of the rich man, i.e privileged, who could be representative of Lazarus, the underprivileged of Christs time, who was Christ addressing, what was the chasm that existed, who had Moses that they could turn to even though they would not believe even if someone was raised from the dead.
But in what other parable of Christ does He mention the specific name of someone ?
In no parable that I can recall does Jesus give a name to someone in the allegory.
( I agree that Hades or Hell is the grave or the realm of the dead ).