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Originally posted by KellyJay
It isn't that being rich is evil, but living for it, making it the goal in your life.
You can be tested with riches or getting a lot, it is harder staying focused with
a lot than with losing all you have or having nothing. No one is made evil or
good by the amount of money or wealth they have or lack. Where ever your
heart is, that will be what drives you.
Kelly

You need to stop listening to the rubbish being taught in many churches and read and follow the words of Christ. Do you understand what CHrist said here :

Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

If the man were to sell what he has and give it to the poor then he will also become poor. If then the man follows the commandments of Christ he will have treasure in heaven.

It should be obvious that the poor has a distinct advantage over the rich. Christ says that very clearly :

Mark 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

You are so far removed from the teachings of Christ its not funny.

Originally posted by Suzianne
This^

/agree


"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." -- 1 Timothy 6:10

So why do you think that so many Christians are OK with capitalism? It seems to me that because we live in a capitalist country, they filter their perception of Jesus through that capitalist lense. They are forcing their conception of Jesus to conform to their particular expectations.

Originally posted by rwingett
The bible is filled with passages against the rich. It's one of the most frequently recurring topics. It's amazing, though, how so many Christians will simply ignore that and pretend that capitalism is somehow compatible with Christianity.

I don't agree that capitalism is compatible with the Bible, but neither do I agree that communism is necessarily endorsed by it. Have you ever considered the Bible's condemnation of the rich as an expression of the fundamental opposition of God's Kingdom to the money-based kingdom of men? In which case, communism and capitalism would be rejected equally, since both relegate power to money.

Originally posted by rwingett
Amongst my many, many beefs with Christianity is that it has drifted very far from its beginnings. In a relatively short time, it went from being the religion of those who stood outside the power systems of the time to being the official state religion of the power brokers. Those who, like Divegeester, claim that Christianity is perfectly compatible with th his death and, for all intents and purposes, completely ignore his emphasis on social justice.

Christianity is that it has drifted very far from its beginnings.

As has socialism. Your ideals rwingett, of a world where the human race is capable of existing harmoniously in a society where everyone agrees with "having all things in common" are some of the most ridiculous on this forum.

Those who, like Divegeester, claim that Christianity is perfectly compatible with the enormous inequalities and injustices present in the world...

I've never claimed any such thing. In fact if you weren't so full of your own puffed-up importance and bothered to read my posts you would understand that I am actually an opponent of organised, financially motivated Christianity/religion.

Just because I don't accept your fairy-tail dream-world view of a lovey-dovey society where everyone shares their breakfast with the tramp who murdered their grandma, doesn't mean I am therefore a proponent of your version on Christianity.

I am a theist who "lives" in the real world; you strike me as being confused and deluded way beyond any of the people you criticise here.

Originally posted by rwingett
I think you are correct. Following the commandments of Jesus, as I see it, would require either the complete upending of society, or the complete abandonment of it. Instead, they worship the personhood of Jesus, while paying lip service to his commandments, as they continue to engage in business as usual. They've fashioned themselves a 'middle class' Jesus ...[text shortened]... continue perpetuating the power structures that breed monstrous injustices and inequalities.

Jesus commanded that we are to be "in the world not of it", that we are to "render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's". We are to work and to pay our taxes. Proverbs 31 speaks of the wife of noble character. The whole piece is about trading and wise economics in order to make good provision. You simply have no understanding of Biblical emphases and your atheistic narrow view of the world disables you from seeing God's plan for mankind.

A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar. She gets up while it is still dark; she provides food for her family and portions for her servant girls. She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard. She sets about her work vigorously; her arms are strong for her tasks. She sees that her trading is profitable, and her lamp does not go out at night. In her hand she holds the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers. She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy. When it snows, she has no fear for her household; for all of them are clothed in scarlet. She makes coverings for her bed; she is clothed in fine linen and purple. Her husband is respected at the city gate, where he takes his seat among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes. She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come. She speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness. Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her: "Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all." Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate. (Prov 31:10-31)

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I don't agree that capitalism is compatible with the Bible, but neither do I agree that communism is necessarily endorsed by it. Have you ever considered the Bible's condemnation of the rich as an expression of the fundamental opposition of God's Kingdom to the money-based kingdom of men? In which case, communism and capitalism would be rejected equally, since both relegate power to money.

He does not know the difference between socialism and communism, its hardly likely that he will know what capitalism is either and even less likely what is compatible with scripture and what is not.

Originally posted by galveston75
He seems to interested only in what comes out of his brain..... 🙂

na hes just a crashing bore best left to his own devices. 🙂

Originally posted by divegeester
Christianity is that it has drifted very far from its beginnings.

As has socialism. Your ideals rwingett, of a world where the human race is capable of existing harmoniously in a society where everyone agrees with "having all things in common" are some of the most ridiculous on this forum.

Those who, like Divegeester, claim that Christi strike me as being confused and deluded way beyond any of the people you criticise here.

A society with people "having all things in common" is a practical reality. It already exists for the Hutterites. They have 483 colonies, with nearly 50,000 people, where they hold all things in common. It's not a "fairy-tail dream-world", but, rather, is a living reality. In my opinion, they are following in the footsteps of Jesus a lot more closely than you are. Your concern for the "real world" amounts to nothing more than your willingness to accommodate injustice and inequality and thereby help perpetuate them indefinitely. In order for the Kingdom to come, you have to quit accommodating the "real world." When you do that; when you quit helping to perpetuate inequality and injustice; when you build a just world, then you will look up and see that the Kingdom is all around you.

But you continue with business as usual as you wait for Jesus to come back and do all the work for you. Well I say that he is waiting for you to quit accommodating the real world and do something on your own. If you build a more just world, free from injustice and inequality, then the spirit of Jesus will flow into that world and it will have his blessing. The "second coming", Divegeester, will be a spiritual one, not a physical one. And all you have to do to actualize it is to quit accommodating the "real world." When you do that, then you will look up and see that the Kingdom is all around you.

Originally posted by divegeester
Jesus commanded that we are to be "in the world not of it", that we are to "render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's". We are to work and to pay our taxes. Proverbs 31 speaks of the wife of noble character. The whole piece is about trading and wise economics in order to make good provision. You simply have no understanding of Biblical emphases and ...[text shortened]... she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate. (Prov 31:10-31)[/i]

The Hutterites pay taxes to the US and Canadian governments. They are situated "in" that world, but they are not of it.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I don't agree that capitalism is compatible with the Bible, but neither do I agree that communism is necessarily endorsed by it. Have you ever considered the Bible's condemnation of the rich as an expression of the fundamental opposition of God's Kingdom to the money-based kingdom of men? In which case, communism and capitalism would be rejected equally, since both relegate power to money.

I think you've just been conditioned to hate the word "communism". Or to view it as being necessarily equivalent to Soviet despotism. That's fine. Choose whatever word you like for a society where people hold all goods in common.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
He does not know the difference between socialism and communism, its hardly likely that he will know what capitalism is either and even less likely what is compatible with scripture and what is not.

I know fully well the meanings of socialism and communism. And I remain supremely uninterested in listening to you pontificate on their differences.

Originally posted by divegeester
Jesus commanded that we are to be "in the world not of it", that we are to "render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's". We are to work and to pay our taxes. Proverbs 31 speaks of the wife of noble character. The whole piece is about trading and wise economics in order to make good provision. You simply have no understanding of Biblical emphases and ...[text shortened]... she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate. (Prov 31:10-31)[/i]

...She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy...

There are 2,200,000,000 Christians in the world. If they all followed this passage in Proverbs and helped the poor and needy as commanded by Christ, who they hypocritically claim to follow and worship, poverty might be eradicated.

Originally posted by divegeester
Jesus commanded that we are to be "in the world not of it", that we are to "render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's". We are to work and to pay our taxes. Proverbs 31 speaks of the wife of noble character. The whole piece is about trading and wise economics in order to make good provision. You simply have no understanding of Biblical emphases and ...[text shortened]... she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate. (Prov 31:10-31)[/i]

proverbs 31 does not endorse capitalism. It was written in the age of agrarian based economics, which is similar to the fuedal Lords and serfs of Europe pre-capitalism. The economic system was dependant upon amassing huge stores of food, which would then support not only oneself, but ones slaves, workers and their families etc... That is a far cry from what we know today.

Originally posted by Doward
proverbs 31 does not endorse capitalism. It was written in the age of agrarian based economics, which is similar to the fuedal Lords and serfs of Europe pre-capitalism. The economic system was dependant upon amassing huge stores of food, which would then support not only oneself, but ones slaves, workers and their families etc... That is a far cry from what we know today.

I'm sure he's aware of that. For convenience we are using the term 'capitalism' to mean any system of private ownership. And I have been using the term 'socialism' to denote any system of communal ownership. Although neither term is necessarily applicable to antiquity, they make for convenient stand-ins.

Originally posted by rwingett
I think you've just been conditioned to hate the word "communism". Or to view it as being necessarily equivalent to Soviet despotism. That's fine. Choose whatever word you like for a society where people hold all goods in common.

I take that as a no.