18 Jul 06
Originally posted by ranjan sinhaYou are assuming of course that the God in question has cirtain properties. If he exists then he clearly allows pain, suffering, death etc (after all he invented them). There is no reason to assume that he does not want people to suffer, die, fight etc. after all most religions are founded on the premise that death is a good thing for followers of that religion.
How can He instigate one group of his followers to kill other fellow beings in His creation?
19 Jul 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterWell , you can replace the word "INSTIGATE" by ' PERMIT". The rest of the argument still remains logically sound enough to question the existence of God.
Instigate? This is where you argument falls down. You have to show that God instigates his followers to commit violence against other men , and yet you have admitted that these men are doing this through belief in "a God of their own creation". So if it IS a "God of their own creation " it's not the real , living God is it? It's not in reality God that ...[text shortened]... ing it as an argument to discredit God (which is exactly what the devil wants you to do)
19 Jul 06
Originally posted by ranjan sinhaI'm all for questioning the existence of God but if you are going to go down the "permit" line of reasoning then you are going to have to wrestle with the free will debate at some point. Do you imagine that God can create free will without there being any possibility that bad things might happen that God does not like , or would you prefer a robotic , God controlled existence?
Well , you can replace the word "INSTIGATE" by ' PERMIT". The rest of the argument still remains logically sound enough to question the existence of God.
19 Jul 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzNot this one again scottishnz! He doesn't 'already' know he's just in a different time dimension from us. It's self evident that if he didn't create any universe then he could not know how it turns out because it would never have existed. He can't know until he creates.
If God is but one, why create a universe when, having omniscience, he already knows how it turns out?
19 Jul 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterThen he's not omniscient.
Not this one again scottishnz! He doesn't 'already' know he's just in a different time dimension from us. It's self evident that if he didn't create any universe then he could not know how it turns out because it would never have existed. He can't know until he creates.
21 Jul 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzIf God creates freedom and an element of unpredictability into the universe so that even he can't 'predict' the outcome of some events then he has done this by his own choice. If you own a business and you hand over control of a section of it to an employee in one sense you are no longer in complete control of your business but in another sense you are still the owner and can take back control any time you want. There is a difference between limited power and knowledge and consciously self imposed limitations.You would not say to this business man "Ah HA, you are not totally in control of your business ! I thought you were the owner and yet look what he's doing! You can't be as good a business man as I thought you were!"
Then he's not omniscient.
So in a sense you are completely right , God is not totally omniscient (or ominpotent) but in another sense you are completely wrong because this does not occur out some limitation God has but a self imposed situation. If God cannot create a rock so big that he can't lift it does this mean he is not as strong as we thought or does it mean that he is stronger than we thought?
A lot depends on whether you like pedantic mind games or whether you are prepared to look at the bigger picture.
21 Jul 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterA businessman is never 'totally in control' of his buisiness.
If God creates freedom and an element of unpredictability into the universe so that even he can't 'predict' the outcome of some events then he has done this by his own choice. If you own a business and you hand over control of a section of it to an employee in one sense you are no longer in complete control of your business but in another sense you are ...[text shortened]... you like pedantic mind games or whether you are prepared to look at the bigger picture.
However the whole concept of a being that is capable of thinking or acting outside of time is flawed from the onset because both thinking and acting - including creating are time dependant concepts.
You even bring up the concept of another 'time dimension' to get around this. Does this mean that in that dimension God cannot fortel the future? Or did he create that dimention while sitting in an even higher dimension?
Of course the concepts of heaven and hell imply some sort of spacial dimensions external to the universe with the possibility that God has a location in those dimensions ie he is not present in Hell.
22 Jul 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterWhat makes you think this is the only universe? There may be an infinity of universes, each one created by another god. Ever think of that?
If God creates freedom and an element of unpredictability into the universe so that even he can't 'predict' the outcome of some events then he has done this by his own choice. If you own a business and you hand over control of a section of it to an employee in one sense you are no longer in complete control of your business but in another sense you are ...[text shortened]... you like pedantic mind games or whether you are prepared to look at the bigger picture.
22 Jul 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterYes, I don't like pedantic mind games, that's why I'm an atheist.
If God creates freedom and an element of unpredictability into the universe so that even he can't 'predict' the outcome of some events then he has done this by his own choice. If you own a business and you hand over control of a section of it to an employee in one sense you are no longer in complete control of your business but in another sense you are ...[text shortened]... you like pedantic mind games or whether you are prepared to look at the bigger picture.
22 Jul 06
Originally posted by royaltystatementBetter than the decaying blob of gray matter you already have, you can't do anything but spout 2000 year old lies. It just goes to show there really is no intelligent life on earth. I assume you also think dinosaurs and men walked on earth at the same time also.
That's why your mind has already began to burn.
01 Aug 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterHere you are.
Instigate? This is where you argument falls down. You have to show that God instigates his followers to commit violence against other men , and yet you have admitted that these men are doing this through belief in "a God of their own creation". So if it IS a "God of their own creation " it's not the real , living God is it? It's not in reality God that ...[text shortened]... ing it as an argument to discredit God (which is exactly what the devil wants you to do)
You need to assume the existence of devil to prove the existence of God. One unfounded premise does not prove another unfounded premise....