28 Dec 06
As far as the love message goes, however, you bring up Luke 14:26 I think to use as an example of Chrsit contradicting his love message. However, is this scripture telling us to literally hate their father and mother etc? I don't think so, rather, what Jesus is saying here is that if you love your father and mother or sister or brother more than me (Christ) you are not worthy of me.Yet another example of interpretting th text to match our belief.
When Jesus says
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
(King James Bible, Luke)
we are quick to explain it away
But when Paul says
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(King James Bible, Romans)
It is the litteral meaning that we get.
Let us be consistant friends. Paul was obviously trying to stop people from boasting. We have all sinned, so let's stop agnifying the false of others. It is as simple as that.
28 Dec 06
Originally posted by VarqaThere is an understanding in this verse that is deeper than 'literal'. I am not sure that it is not just a simple test of the spiritual intelligence of the individual. But for sure there are things that are said one way in the Old Testament and in the light of the New Testament appear to be contradictory. What is lost sight of here is that these issues appear in our own lives daily and we just 'explain them away' almost without thought. This is not a faith or belief issue...
When Jesus says
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
we are quick to explain it away
28 Dec 06
Originally posted by ahosyneyWell. since I can't read arabic, I have to go with your translation. Unfortunately, when you translate it one way and then turn arond and say "no, no, it doesn't say that in arabic", then I am inclined not to believe that any of your translations are correct.
I don't deny I said that, and the most important is what the verse say not me. And when I read them in arabic I don't see the constradiction you talk about, because the verses are talking about two different situations, in only one of them the concept of the Day of GOD is used. The contradiction comes when you talk about the same thing, and say two different things. Can you say that about this point?
28 Dec 06
2 edits
Originally posted by VarqaBetter yet, instead of me translating the verse why don't we read the chapter in which the verse sits to see the context of what Christ was talking about.
Yet another example of interpretting th text to match our belief.
When Jesus says
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
(King James Bible, Luke)
we are quick to explain it away
But when Paul says
For all have sinned, ...[text shortened]... ting. We have all sinned, so let's stop agnifying the false of others. It is as simple as that.
Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever does not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, inteding to build a tower sits not down first, and counts the cost, whether he has sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he has laid the foundation and is not able to finish it, all that beholds it begin to mock him, saying, "This man began to build, and was not able to finish. Or what king, going to make war against another king, sits not down first and consults whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that ocmes against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends an ambassage, and desires conditions of peace. So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsakes not all that he has, he cannot be my disciple. Salt is good but if the salt has lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land, not yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that has ears, let him hear."
So what is Jesus saying when he says to "hate" your family? Is it to literally hate them or to hate them for the sake of hating them or is he saying that we must forsake all else and place God at the center of our lives and follow him whatever the cost to us personally? After reading the chapter, what is the literal interpretation do you think, or is Chrsit telling us to literally crucfy ourselves when he says we must take up our cross and follow him?
29 Dec 06
That is wonderful. I did not actually believed Jesus wants us to hate our parents. I am simply saying let's take a look at the context.
When I read Paul's letter to the Romans, I get the sense that he is upset about the followers of Jesus boasting. He seems to be trying to tell them that they should not be boastful about their deeds. He wants them to not point at the actions of one another and think because they have done such and such it means they are better. This is why he talks about saved by faith rather than by works. Let's take a few examples.
Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
(King James Bible, Romans)
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
(King James Bible, Romans)
He is clearly trying to make an analogy. First he gives example of Jews who believe circumcision alone can profit them.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(King James Bible, Romans)
This is where we all get lost. This is where the faulty doctrine comes from. But if we read on a bit we see what he is trying to say.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
(King James Bible, Romans)
Why boast then? No one is perfect. We are all trying our best, so no one need boast.
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
(King James Bible, Romans)
This has confused us, because Paul is being critical of those who boast. He is simply trying to make us understand that no one is perfect. If you look at the Bible as a whole you see that the doctrine of original sin does not hol true.
29 Dec 06
1 edit
Originally posted by VarqaAs I said before you can either think of ourselves as having a sin nature and giving into sin 100% of the time or you can think of ourselves as perfect and falling just as Adam did in the garden 100% of the time. Either way, we are all sinners, no?
That is wonderful. I did not actually believed Jesus wants us to hate our parents. I am simply saying let's take a look at the context.
When I read Paul's letter to the Romans, I get the sense that he is upset about the followers of Jesus boasting. He seems to be trying to tell them that they should not be boastful about their deeds. He wants them to not p you look at the Bible as a whole you see that the doctrine of original sin does not hol true.
Edit: In regards to my last post to ahoysey about the love message in the Quran, can you answer my questions?
29 Dec 06
Originally posted by whodeySo what if we are not perfect. Only God is perfect. We are not God. We are not perfect that is why we will always need Him to guide us, ever striving for perfection and never reaching it.
[b]As I said before you can either think of ourselves as having a sin nature and giving into sin 100% of the time or you can think of ourselves as perfect and falling just as Adam did in the garden 100% of the time. Either way, we are all sinners, no?
29 Dec 06
Originally posted by VarqaBut if we have no sin are we not perfect? What causes imperfection? If you argue that not being God and being human causes imperfection, would this not be the same as saying we have a sin nature because we are not perfect?
So what if we are not perfect. Only God is perfect. We are not God. We are not perfect that is why we will always need Him to guide us, ever striving for perfection and never reaching it.
29 Dec 06
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyI think he answered you before, go back and read his posts and you will find it.
Where in the Quran do you have a comparable teaching to love your enemies as in the Bible?
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Here his post:
Originally posted by Varqa
Mayhap that God will place love between you and between those of them ye are hostile towards: for God is powerful, and God is forgiving, compassionate.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 60 - The Tried)
I found the above verse in the Quran. It shows that God wants there to be love between the enemies.
The times were very different when Jesus walked the Earth from the time when Muhammad was here. The people They walked among had very dfferent "illnesses." and different illness require different remedies. What worked at the time of Jesus would not work at the time of Mohammad. That is why you see differences in how it was said, but they were both very effective in their prespective times.
As I mentioned earlier, I am a Baha'i and the quote below is from the Baha'i writings which I have pasted for your consideration.
The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 212)
29 Dec 06
Originally posted by whodeyDo you belive in Devil?
But if we have no sin are we not perfect? What causes imperfection? If you argue that not being God and being human causes imperfection, would this not be the same as saying we have a sin nature because we are not perfect?
If so, what is the main goal of the Devil if you do?
If there is no devil, do you think there will be sin?
29 Dec 06
Originally posted by whodeyWhen you talk about the Bible, do you talk about the whole Bible, the NT, or the OT?
Where in the Quran do you have a comparable teaching to love your enemies as in the Bible?
I think you agree with me that the OT contains a lot of violence ordered by GOD aganist the enemies of GOD, that include killing every living.....
I will offer an argument, and I hope you answer me:
If Jesus is GOD, or part of the trinity, then he must be the same GOD who ordered that violence. Which mean that the message of love doesn't exists at least in the OT, do you agree with this?
Then if you come to say that NT is a message of Love, then it implys that GOD changed his way. But GOD doesn't change, so, there is a big conflict here.
Do you agree?
So you have to define exactly the message of love, and your faith about it?
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You told me before that you didn't read Quran, although you talk here about Quran as if you know it very well. That makes me understand that you have some source of information about Quran. Can you tell me your sources, and why do you trust them?
29 Dec 06
If you argue that not being God and being human causes imperfection, would this not be the same as saying we have a sin nature because we are not perfect?[/b]It is one thing to say we are not perfect. But we can still try and follow His teachings. I have trouble with the idea that God created us imperfect, then sent us laws He knew we couldn't follw, rubbed it in our facs, then sent His son to do it for us.
Once we go to Heaven, what is to say that another Adam won't start the whole thing all over again?
30 Dec 06
3 edits
Originally posted by ahosyneyThanks for repsonding to my question. Sorry I did not get back sooner.
[b]Mayhap that God will place love between you and between those of them ye are hostile towards: for God is powerful, and God is forgiving, compassionate.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 60 - The Tried)
I found the above verse in the Quran. It shows that God wants there to be love between the enemies.
So this is the verse comparable to the mandate to love your enemies issued by Christ? However, when we break the verse down we do not see a mandate to love your enemies. It says perhaps God will intervene and cause you to love your enemies. The Chrisitan mandate, however, is making a choice to love your enemies despite what you may feel or personally think about the situation.
To sum up, I do not see a command whatsoever to love your enemies. It is merely a suggestion as to what God might do in the situation verses telling his followers what to do in the situation beforehand.