Creationism vs Naturalism

Originally posted by dj2becker
Excluding the guillotine, would you care to make a list of some of the useful things that were invented my atheists?

I'll start!

Fire.
The Wheel.
Agriculture.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Edited.

You think the guillotine is 'useful'?

As a teacher I use one all the time to cut paper with.

Originally posted by dj2becker
As a teacher I use one all the time to cut paper with.

Oh, okay. As a godless atheist I use one all the time to chop heads off -- people, pets, anything I can get a hold of.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Oh, okay. As a godless atheist I use one all the time to chop heads off -- people, pets, anything I can get a hold of.

How about your fingers? They still okay?

Originally posted by dj2becker
As a teacher

You are a teacher? 😲

Originally posted by Starrman
Weak atheism is scientific, it is an empirically justified position based upon observation (or the lack of it).

If I could be 100% scientific about everything, I would, but you're quite right, people do often dismiss that which is not in their world view.

Based upon observation, you could argue that the fact that there is something rather than nothing, suggests a creator, or at least a creating force. After all the big bang is a rather inexplicable event.

Also the varying definitions of god mean that it is often impossible to dismiss, as there is no method of measuring or recording it. Take paranormal phenomena. Synchronisity is believed by some to be the work of an 'external' influence, yet it is ipossible to study the phenomena itself in the lab, let alone any possible causes. Therefore such events become anecdotal, but powerful personal events for some.

I am not suggesting that a god should be used as the answer to such questions, but that the possiblity should be accepted (along with a host of other improbable causes)

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I'll start!

Fire.
The Wheel.
Agriculture.

I suspect that the inventors actually held very mystical beliefs.

Originally posted by london nick
Based upon observation, you could argue that the fact that there is something rather than nothing, suggests a creator, or at least a creating force. After all the big bang is a rather inexplicable event.

Also the varying definitions of god mean that it is often impossible to dismiss, as there is no method of measuring or recording it. Take paranormal ...[text shortened]... ons, but that the possiblity should be accepted (along with a host of other improbable causes)

If we accept such possibilities, we might as well accept that dragons exist, that there is a small invisible reincarnation of Schopenhauer sitting on my shoulder, or that when I go to sleep I actually instantly transport myself to Alpha Centauri have dinner with aliens and then have my mind wiped and sent back to bed on earth.

That's why science works from the notion of a null-hypothesis and uses parsimony. Anyone that allows himself to think as you lay it out is on a one way trip to the funny farm.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Such as? Big, flying bearded men in the sky creating universes? One so powerful yet still seems to spend his entire existence caring about such insignificant specks as us. No, that's the worst narcissisms of religion. Evolutionary theory is about simplicity. It only required heredity, and mutation. So simple, yet explains so much.

I think you misunderstand my point.

Evolution in humans is unique. (In fact in many ways our society now stops the survival of the fittest.)

Human evolution was accelerated by complex survival strategies. This is common in the animal knigdom. e.g. Queen bees fly high before mating this makes it more likely that the fittest male bee will mate. Humans do much more than this.

We select through complex instincts and courting rituals that are founded in succesful mechanisms to ensure our genetic code survives.

Human evolutionary success was a result of our ability to exist in groups larger than the "family" groups that exist in other species. The belief in gods has been suggested to have been a characteristic that was a help in making these unnaturally large groups stay together.

Look at human history, we are used to believing far more riduculous notions than big flying bearded men.

Originally posted by Starrman
If we accept such possibilities, we might as well accept that dragons exist, that there is a small invisible reincarnation of Schopenhauer sitting on my shoulder, or that when I go to sleep I actually instantly transport myself to Alpha Centauri have dinner with aliens and then have my mind wiped and sent back to bed on earth.

That's why science works fr ...[text shortened]... Anyone that allows himself to think as you lay it out is on a one way trip to the funny farm.

I think you're right about the funny farm!

I guess what i'm saying is that, people need to keep a more open mind, and be skeptical about everything- including science.

After all using Occam's razor what could be simpler than saying a god does everything? Doesn't make it true. Or does it?

There's alot of unexplained and unexplainable phenomena out there.

Originally posted by Starrman
The irony is that all these things could have been accomplished without the notion of god.

Why is that ironic?

Surely it is what you would expect? A universe obeying physically laws, with no need for a god making things work. You would expect it to be discover by some anti religious athiest.


I am not religious at all. However I am not blind to some of the great achievements of religion. It can instill a morality that can be admirable. Of course its also a great excuse to go and murder a few million infidels/pagans etc.

Originally posted by petrosianpupil
I think you misunderstand my point.

Evolution in humans is unique. (In fact in many ways our society now stops the survival of the fittest.)

Human evolution was accelerated by complex survival strategies. This is common in the animal knigdom. e.g. Queen bees fly high before mating this makes it more likely that the fittest male bee will mate. Hu ...[text shortened]... man history, we are used to believing far more riduculous notions than big flying bearded men.

Absolutely no doubt there. However, the notion of living in non-kin groups isn't unique to humans, for example bonobos.

One should not underestimate the importance of cooperation in human civilisations, and the development of religion as the ultimate authority has undoubtably been important in that. However, I view religion as merely a tool employed by priests and kings as a way to rubber stamp their authority, not with the slightest grain of truth.

Originally posted by london nick
I suspect that the inventors actually held very mystical beliefs.

Perhaps, who knows. It seems overbearingly likely though that they did not have anything resembling organised religion though, living in too small a group for that to develop.

Originally posted by london nick
After all using Occam's razor what could be simpler than saying a god does everything? Doesn't make it true. Or does it?

But that would be an incorrect use of Occam's razor, since it relies on an absolute whopper of an assumption.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Absolutely no doubt there. However, the notion of living in non-kin groups isn't unique to humans, for example bonobos.

One should not underestimate the importance of cooperation in human civilisations, and the development of religion as the ultimate authority has undoubtably been important in that. However, I view religion as merely a tool employe ...[text shortened]... ests and kings as a way to rubber stamp their authority, not with the slightest grain of truth.

Agreed it is used as a tool to control the masses. But there are many truths amongst the lies.

Maybe you are too upset with the hypocracy and blindness that is so common in religions; to see some of the benefits.

Personally I know many religious people who have tremendous strengths, some of which come from their beliefs.