Dawkins to arrest Pope

Originally posted by whodey
All I can say is that you should do a little investigaing on your own regarding Biblical Archaeology and get back to me. Fair enough?

What makes you think that I haven't done any? I have done some.

...but don't hold your breath in any case.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
What makes you think that I haven't done any? I have done some.

...but don't hold your breath in any case.

Well if you are interested enough you will look into it further. I would offer some info but I think it would be better for you to find out on your own...that is if you are interested. If you are not interested, then such information will do you precious little good.

Originally posted by whodey
Well if you are interested enough you will look into it further. I would offer some info but I think it would be better for you to find out on your own...that is if you are interested. If you are not interested, then such information will do you precious little good.

Information is good whether you're interested or not 🙂

I'm just not motivated to do a lot of research right now. I've already tried religion before and made my attempts to find god. He either is an omnipotent hide and seek player or just doesn't exist.

Of course, every really religious person I've met since just says I somehow didn't look hard enough - even though they don't know anything about me.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
Information is good whether you're interested or not 🙂

I'm just not motivated to do a lot of research right now. I've already tried religion before and made my attempts to find god. He either is an omnipotent hide and seek player or just doesn't exist.

Of course, every really religious person I've met since just says I somehow didn't look hard enough - even though they don't know anything about me.

So do you call God coming down in the flesh and giving witness to the world the path to God playing hide and seek? You may not agree or believe that he did so in a truthful manner, but that is your call.

Originally posted by whodey
So do you call God coming down in the flesh and giving witness to the world the path to God playing hide and seek? You may not agree or believe that he did so in a truthful manner, but that is your call.

I didn't write that god coming down in the flesh etc... was god playing hide and seek.

I really don't know how you get that from what I actually wrote in my post. If there was someone else posting then I would have thought you were responding to someone else.

I don't agree that he ever came down from anywhere.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
I didn't write that god coming down in the flesh etc... was god playing hide and seek.

I really don't know how you get that from what I actually wrote in my post. If there was someone else posting then I would have thought you were responding to someone else.

I don't agree that he ever came down from anywhere.

I am merely pointing out that some proport that God came down in the flesh to reveal himself to makind. He is far from playing hide and seek. I suppose what you were referring to is your objection that God has not revealed to you on a personal level that he exists and came in the form of Christ. All I can tell you is that those who follow Christ do so because they love him. It is akin to his disciple Peter who they say loved him the most. Peter even swore up and down that he would stay by his side even if it meant his own death. However, when the darkness decended, which it ALWAYS does, and God seemed the most distant he denied him three times as Christ predicted. Nevertheless, because of his love for him he returned dspite his understandably shaken faith. In fact, every single disciple, except one, was martyred for their faith. I am sure these men at times also felt as you. Where is God when I am pursuing him the most? All I can tell you is that they did not back down. Go figure?

Originally posted by whodey
I am merely pointing out that some proport that God came down in the flesh to reveal himself to makind. He is far from playing hide and seek. I suppose what you were referring to is your objection that God has not revealed to you on a personal level that he exists and came in the form of Christ. All I can tell you is that those who follow Christ do so beca ...[text shortened]... when I am pursuing him the most? All I can tell you is that they did not back down. Go figure?

I am merely pointing out that some proport that God came down in the flesh to reveal himself to makind.

But that is irrelevant to my post. That was my point.

He is far from playing hide and seek.

I agree. Something that doesn't exist can't play hide and seek.

All I can tell you is that they did not back down. Go figure?

So once again another true believer telling me that I just didn't chase god enough to find him. What a surprise! Color me shocked that yet another true believer who doesn't know me or my experience at all assumes that they know how hard I looked or what I have done and not done.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
So once again another true believer telling me that I just didn't chase god enough to find him. What a surprise! Color me shocked that yet another true believer who doesn't know me or my experience at all assumes that they know how hard I looked or what I have done and not done.[/b]

My only point here is that those that love Christ love his ways and what he taught. Not everyone during that time felt the same. In fact, when teaching about a rather controversial subject many turned their backs on him but the 12 remained. He then asked them if they would leave as well but their response was, where shall we go because you have the words of life. In short, I want to live my life like Christ lived his. I want to love others the way he loved those around him etc.

If you take issue with the God of the Bible, more than likely you don't love his ways. In fact, not wanting to serve him and/or follow in his footsteps is an indication of this. Am I wrong?

Originally posted by whodey
My only point here is that those that love Christ love his ways and what he taught. Not everyone during that time felt the same. In fact, when teaching about a rather controversial subject many turned their backs on him but the 12 remained. He then asked them if they would leave as well but their response was, where shall we go because you have the words o ...[text shortened]... not wanting to serve him and/or follow in his footsteps is an indication of this. Am I wrong?

If you take issue with the God of the Bible, more than likely you don't love his ways. In fact, not wanting to serve him and/or follow in his footsteps is an indication of this. Am I wrong?

I wouldn't say you're right just because that claim that I "don't love his ways" is pretty vague and non-specific.

Do I love his ways of slaughtering the first born egyptian child in retribution as the story of exodus suggests? No. In that case his way was wrong and immoral.

If you say that "his way" is to love people and treat people with respect then yes.. that's definitely something I want. I don't need to believe in god for that though.

The term "god's way" means something different to most people so you'd have to truly be specific in how you define that before I answer that.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
If you take issue with the God of the Bible, more than likely you don't love his ways. In fact, not wanting to serve him and/or follow in his footsteps is an indication of this. Am I wrong?

I wouldn't say you're right just because that claim that I "don't love his ways" is pretty vague and non-specific.

Do I love his ways of slaughtering th le so you'd have to truly be specific in how you define that before I answer that.

Well the whole notion of sin is the target of the Bible. Sin is the source of our suffering and the reason you feel seperated from God. If so, it would then behoove God to target sin and destroy it once and for all, agreed?

In the OT, we see a God that targets sin through going after the sinner. For example, we see the rule of an eye for an eye. It is barbaric, but has an element of justice to it. When the Egyptians killed the first born of Israel, you might say that their fate was sealed in regards to their own first born down the road. Obviously, if this was the best way to go about things Christ would not have needed to come to offer us a better way, but he did.

In the NT we see a God changing tactics by using Christ to overcome sin in peoples lives so that the sin can be targeted without destroying the sinner. An era of grace was introduced. Chrsit once said that he who commits sin is a slave of sin but can overcome it through him. I can attest to this claim, I have been able to overcome sins in my own life that until I came to him I seemed powerless against. In short, I have witnessed some of the greatest transformations in people that I have ever seen through the power of Christ. I can't say that I have had one of the greatest transformations of many people I have witnessed, but I can tell you Chirst has changed me. In fact, one of my earliest recollections that something was amiss was during my childhood. I could sense that something within me was not right, and I inquired in vain to my parents who both seemed baffled as to what I was asking. However, after coming to Christ that gnawing void inside me went away.

So as we see today, Christ is the better reflection into the heart of God. Although judgement and wrath are a part of it, love is the underlying motive for everything he does. After all, without judgement there is no justice and without justice their is no love. This is sometimes hard to see when we are the ones violating justice or see others suffering for doing so as well.

Originally posted by whodey
Well the whole notion of sin is the target of the Bible. Sin is the source of our suffering and the reason you feel seperated from God. If so, it would then behoove God to target sin and destroy it once and for all, agreed?

In the OT, we see a God that targets sin through going after the sinner. For example, we see the rule of an eye for an eye. It i ...[text shortened]... ard to see when we are the ones violating justice or see others suffering for doing so as well.

Sin is the source of our suffering and the reason you feel seperated from God. If so, it would then behoove God to target sin and destroy it once and for all, agreed?

So if I accept the premise that sin is the source of our suffering and the reason I feel separated from god then I would have to accept that conclusion?

Well, I don't know. How does an omnipotent god destroy sin once and for all? By killing the first born child of every egyptian? That immoral action didn't work.. geez.. god made a mistake..oops!

The problem is, I don't accept your premise.

For example, we see the rule of an eye for an eye. It is barbaric, but has an element of justice to it.

So god is barbaric, but he has a touch of justice...hmm...

When the Egyptians killed the first born of Israel, you might say that their fate was sealed in regards to their own first born down the road.

So if you killed my son, would you agree that I have a right to kill yours? Eye for an eye and all that you know.

Obviously, if this was the best way to go about things

So god in his all knowing and all knowing self did something that wasn't the best way? Why didn't he choose the best way?

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
[b] Sin is the source of our suffering and the reason you feel seperated from God. If so, it would then behoove God to target sin and destroy it once and for all, agreed?

So if I accept the premise that sin is the source of our suffering and the reason I feel separated from god then I would have to accept that conclusion?

Well, I don't know. How does an omnipotent god destroy sin once and for all?

Read the end of Revelation. That is how sin is destroyed once and for all. As for the process to get there, he could have killed off Adam and Eve, but he spared them even though he had every right to destroy them and the human race. The bottom line is that God saw something redeemable in humanity and he showed mercy.

I will conceed that God seems harsh at times in the OT when it comes to dealing out justice and punishing sin, but then again, if sinful behavoir is the source of our ills then why wouldn't he?. From my perspective, they kinda brought those things upon themselves. You may not agree with how God handled those situations, but then, that is because you are not God. If you were God, you would know and see to do what needs to be done as where no one else in creation would. For example, what if those children were going to be raised to do horrific things? What if they were all destined to be little Adolf Hitlers? Who knows but God?

I suppose that is where faith enters the picture. I believe that God is benevolent as was the example we have in Christ. Of course, even Christ begged the Father to spare him the cross but his prayers went unanswered. So was the faith Christ had in the Father in vain? Nope, not from my vantage point, however, that did not preclude him from tasting death, hell, and the grave in the process.

Originally posted by whodey
Read the end of Revelation. That is how sin is destroyed once and for all. As for the process to get there, he could have killed off Adam and Eve, but he spared them even though he had every right to destroy them and the human race. The bottom line is that God saw something redeemable in humanity and he showed mercy.

I will conceed that God seems harsh int, however, that did not preclude him from tasting death, hell, and the grave in the process.

Read the end of Revelation. That is how sin is destroyed once and for all.

I don't believe it is destroyed or that revelation contains any such reality.

As for the process to get there, he could have killed off Adam and Eve but he spared them even though he had every right to destroy them and the human race.

Aaaah yes... we're so lucky he didn't squash those fictional characters like bugs.

The bottom line is that God saw something redeemable in humanity and he showed mercy.

Well, he supposedly created them so I would imagine he knew what was in them. Of course, he should have known that they were so susceptible to temptation.

I will conceed that God seems harsh at times in the OT when it comes to dealing out justice and punishing sin, but then again, if sinful behavoir is the source of our ills then why wouldn't he?.

How many reasons do you want?

From my perspective, they kinda brought those things upon themselves.

Yes.. the first born children of the eqyptians who DID NOTHING WRONG deserved to die. The innocent children brought it upon themselves through their guilt??!?!?!

You may not agree with how God handled those situations, but then, that is because you are not God. If you were God, you would know and see to do what needs to be done as where no one else in creation would.

This tired argument. I should accept the bible and anything that doesn't make sense... well I'm not god so I can't question it. BOVINE EXCREMENT! It's just an excuse to maintain blind faith and prevent you from questioning this supposedly sacred text.

For example, what if those children were going to be raised to do horrific things? What if they were all destined to be little Adolf Hitlers? Who knows but God?

WOW... Just WOW. Preemptive MURDER. Do you actually believe what you are saying?? If god was so powerful then he could have allowed them to live and prevented them from becoming little adolf hitlers. Apparently your conception of god isn't creative enough to conceive of solutions other than "KILL THEM ALL!!!!"

I believe that God is benevolent as was the example we have in Christ.

Yes... even as he murders many children. It's only because he's benevolent that he does so.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
This tired argument. I should accept the bible and anything that doesn't make sense... well I'm not god so I can't question it. BOVINE EXCREMENT! It's just an excuse to maintain blind faith and prevent you from questioning this supposedly sacred text.

[

If there is a God, then faith must be apart of our relationship with him. After all, only God knows all and sees all, therefore, we must rely on him for his judgement and wisdom at times when we don't have the ability to understand certain things. How can we understand all things since we are not God?

Aditionally, if there be a God and such a God is not just and benevolent then we are all screwed. I will bet the house, however, that God is benevolent. Part of this certainty is how we are wired. We have an innate sense of justice that springs up within us that tells us to do unto others as they would do to us. It would then behoove us to listen to this inner voice least simlar things, if not worse things, befall us. In fact, if I were to ignore this inner voice I would expect bad things to happen to me as well. In addition, bad things would probably happen to "innocent" people around me as well. That is the thing about sinfulness, its destructive nature is like an explosive that effects everyone within its vicinity. Just ask the "innocent" in the Bible who were martyred for proclaiming the word of God. In fact, Christ said that the blood of the prophets were layed at the feet of the nation of Israel. These men did NOTHING deserving of their fate. In fact, all they were doing was trying to sound a warning that went unheeded. Then, no doubt, "bad things" befell them as objections were heard from them much like your own.

Originally posted by whodey
If there is a God, then faith must be apart of our relationship with him. After all, only God knows all and sees all, therefore, we must rely on him for his judgement and wisdom at times when we don't have the ability to understand certain things. How can we understand all things since we are not God?

Aditionally, if there be a God and such a God is not no doubt, "bad things" befell them as objections were heard from them much like your own.

If there is a God, then faith must be apart of our relationship with him.

Why?

After all, only God knows all and sees all, therefore, we must rely on him for his judgement and wisdom at times when we don't have the ability to understand certain things.

I don't have to rely on god ever. It's true that sometimes we don't understand some things and what might be happening, but that doesn't mean we have to rely on some mythical being for whom we have little if any real evidence for.

Aditionally, if there be a God and such a God is not just and benevolent then we are all screwed.

And why is it so unlikely that we are all screwed?

We have an innate sense of justice that springs up within us that tells us to do unto others as they would do to us.

I'm not sure it's so innate. Not everyone has that too.

These men did NOTHING deserving of their fate. In fact, all they were doing was trying to sound a warning that went unheeded. Then, no doubt, "bad things" befell them as objections were heard from them much like your own

That's all fine and dandy... but it was you who said that "From my perspective, they kinda brought those things upon themselves.".

I think bad things happen to people not because of "sin" but because there just isn't any power controlling anything - it is just nature.

No matter how sinless a life we lead there still will be earthquakes and people will still get brutal forms of cancer - sin or no sin.