Spirituality
27 Dec 07
01 Jan 08
Originally posted by Ullri think a plausible case can be made from his various writings that he was a covert satanist who believed in the devil, quite apart from the popular perception of him. he was also a decent chess player.
Obviously you know very little about Aleister Crowley and his work. For starters he was not a Satanist or devil worshipper as some would like to believe.
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01 Jan 08
Originally posted by Iron MonkeyOkay specifically what writings of his would you use to build a case that he was a Satanist?
i think a plausible case can be made from his various writings that he was a covert satanist who believed in the devil, quite apart from the popular perception of him. he was also a decent chess player.
02 Jan 08
Originally posted by Ullrit's not a debate that i have anything original to contribute to, and don't really want to bother to reproduce it here - no doubt the basic positions are out there on the net somewhere. if Crowley isn't an example of a Satanist who believes in Satan that you'rte comfortable with, there are plenty of others to choose from.
Okay specifically what writings of his would you use to build a case that he was a Satanist?
There seems to be a few different conceptions of Satanism being used in this thread, which is just impeding the discussion. Specifically, my original question pertained to those who literally believe in the existence of Satan. Though there might be fewer of these around these days (just as there are fewer people who believe in God), there are been plenty historically. Personally, i think that applying the label 'Satanist' to someone who doesn't believe in Satan is a bit silly, like calling someone who doesn't believe Christ was the son of God a 'Christian'. I'm still interested in learning why people who believe in God and the devil and heaven and hell would choose to serve the devil. Presumably they didn't think they would suffer an eternity of torment in hell. There have been a few interesting suggestions so far.
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02 Jan 08
Originally posted by Iron MonkeyWell Crowley is not a Satanist at all so it hard to be comfortable with him as an example. If you don't agree or aren't sure if you agree with this then read Crowley's own writings and not what other people say about him over the internet and you'll see what I mean. A Kabbalist - yes, a Western Ceremonial Magician - yes, a lunatic - probably, a Satanist - definately not.
it's not a debate that i have anything original to contribute to, and don't really want to bother to reproduce it here - no doubt the basic positions are out there on the net somewhere. if Crowley isn't an example of a Satanist who believes in Satan that you'rte comfortable with, there are plenty of others to choose from.
There seems to be a few diffe ...[text shortened]... n eternity of torment in hell. There have been a few interesting suggestions so far.
Personally I find it hard to believe that anyone who truly believes in God and the Devil, Heaven and Hell, and the whole eternal torment/damnation myth would worship the Devil. Unless they believe that the Devil and his followers will somehow overthrow the heavenly order of things.
I think the reality is less exciting and that is that the vast majority of Satanists simply to do not believe Christian mythology.
02 Jan 08
Originally posted by Ullrwell, it's fine for you to have your opinion on Crowley, but i think you're wrong. let's leave it at that.
Well Crowley is not a Satanist at all so it hard to be comfortable with him as an example. If you don't agree or aren't sure if you agree with this then read Crowley's own writings and not what other people say about him over the internet and you'll see what I mean. A Kabbalist - yes, a Western Ceremonial Magician - yes, a lunatic - probably, a Satanist - def ...[text shortened]... nd that is that the vast majority of Satanists simply to do not believe Christian mythology.
as for Satanists simply not believing in Christian mythology, that doesn't distinguish them from people of other faiths, and atheists. anyway, there's no point in discussing it further. thanks for the input.
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02 Jan 08
Originally posted by Iron MonkeyOh man, you've actually generated a somewhat interesting discussion (IMO) and now you want to cut if off. WTF?
well, it's fine for you to have your opinion on Crowley, but i think you're wrong. let's leave it at that.
as for Satanists simply not believing in Christian mythology, that doesn't distinguish them from people of other faiths, and atheists. anyway, there's no point in discussing it further. thanks for the input.
My opinion on Crowley is based upon reading his writings not what someone else has to say about him. What are you basing your opinion on?
Not believing in Christian Mythology is just one thing that a Satanist has in common with other faiths and atheism. There are other things that distinguish them. Although it seems to me they have more in common with Atheism than anything else.
02 Jan 08
Originally posted by stokerRight first time.
earthly pleasure, and more earthly pleasure
Old-time Satanism was about having a gas; Black Masses, cheap thrills. Cocking a snook at the Establishment, then riddled with bossy priests. Illicit homosexual weddings. People painted with a broad brush in those times.
I've yet to meet in real life a modern Satanist who takes their beliefs very seriously--the diagnosis is largely trendoidism with a smattering of New Age post-modernism. (Crowley was a New Ager; he helped inaugurate it). The only (formerly) Satanic artist who's produced work I like is Boyd Rice (look up his web site; interesting chap). However, that's not to say that meditation, path-working, etc with a Satanic flavour (think: The Tarot of Satan) might not yield interesting results.
02 Jan 08
Originally posted by Ullrit's just that i don't want to get diverted into arguments about whether Crowley was a Satanist or not (my fault for introducing a controversial example i suppose), or whether Satanists have to believe in Satan or whether the majority do. Those are all interesting questions, but what I am really interested in, as i have mentioned, is the thinking of those who believe in god and the devil, and an eternity in heaven and hell, yet choose to worship Satan. you've said that you don't think anybody with these beliefs would in fact worship Satan, but i'm not so sure. i think some research is in order, and that's how i intend to pursue tthe topic. i just thought someone here might have preceded me in this.
Oh man, you've actually generated a somewhat interesting discussion (IMO) and now you want to cut if off. WTF?
My opinion on Crowley is based upon reading his writings not what someone else has to say about him. What are you basing your opinion on?
Not believing in Christian Mythology is just one thing that a Satanist has in common with other faiths and ...[text shortened]... nguish them. Although it seems to me they have more in common with Atheism than anything else.
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02 Jan 08
Originally posted by Iron MonkeyI don't necessarily think that nobody would do this I just think it would be extremely rare because who in their right mind would volunteer for eternal torment if they really believed that to be the end result of their actions?
you've said that you don't think anybody with these beliefs would in fact worship Satan, but i'm not so sure. i think some research is in order, and that's how i intend to pursue tthe topic. i just thought someone here might have preceded me in this.
02 Jan 08
Originally posted by jaywillDang, we're in Craziesville. Jaywill, you live around here. What's the shortest route to Candyland?
In other words Aton LaVay would admit to the people that [b]Harry Potter gets his stuff from Satan.
They wouldn't believe it if Christians told them.[/b]
Originally posted by jaywill
The one possibly good thing Aton LaVay did was tell the truth to all the practicers of magic, white magic, so-called "good" magic, "good" witches, sorcerer ...[text shortened]... ervice to the Christian church. They wouldn't believe it if Christians told them that.
02 Jan 08
Originally posted by Iron MonkeyIgnorance!
Here's something that i've never quite understood about devil worship: what's the incentive? God bribes people with the prospect of eternity in heaven, which is supposed to be a pleasant place. Whats in it for devil worshippers - an eternity in hell? that's supposed to be something to avoid. Or are all the benefits earthly benefits - in which case, it se ...[text shortened]... nity in hell. I take it though that these people aren't (all) stupid. So, what's the deal?
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04 Jan 08
Leaving aside the question of modern LaVey Satanism vs old school "devil worship" for a moment....
Obviously someone who actively believes in Satan and Jesus in the biblical sense, yet still chooses to worship Satan despite the knowledge that they would be damned for all eternity would be a very lost, self destructive and potentially insane individual.
If Jesus is such an all-singing, all-dancing, all-round good guy, why wouldn't he just forgive them and save them anyway?
04 Jan 08
Originally posted by Iron MonkeySatanism was coined by the church, roughly 900 years ago, to depict various other religions (like drudism, etc.).
Here's something that i've never quite understood about devil worship: what's the incentive? God bribes people with the prospect of eternity in heaven, which is supposed to be a pleasant place. Whats in it for devil worshippers - an eternity in hell? that's supposed to be something to avoid. Or are all the benefits earthly benefits - in which case, it se ...[text shortened]... nity in hell. I take it though that these people aren't (all) stupid. So, what's the deal?
It basically had nothing to do with Satan, but scaring people away from "heathen religions".
God forbid anyone should worship water or sunlight, as opposed to carpenters and slutty Mary's.