26 Jul 05
Originally posted by telerionIf you believe in God, then either those people were not true believers or failed to seek out the truth or the book we have now has "extra" stuff.
What about all the believers for centuries that didn't have a 'complete' Bible? Did God fail them by giving them a book that is not 'utterly intact' and thus, according to your reasoning, 'a false book,'?
26 Jul 05
Originally posted by kingdanwaI don't believe in god. I count myself an atheist. When I die, I'm dead, nothing continues after. I fall into the realm of virtual non-existance (The virtual part being that I will still have a body decomposing). I do not believe that there is any after-life or great beyond, or anything such as that.
Perhaps not. If this life sucks, and an end of it means no more pain, isn't no pain better than daily hellish pain?
People get just one shot in all of existance. One small span of (if they're lucky) 100 years or so. In the huge vastness of the universe, 100 years is it. After that, there is nothing more. You don't need god to provide morality or even to give a face to goodness. I want my 100 years. I want as long as I can possibly get, and I want to be as happy as I possibly can, because frankly, the idea of non-existance is the most awesome, terrifying, incomprehensible thing. If all that people get is 100 years, then I want it to be the best time that I could ever think of. If you think about that, then there's no reason not to be kind to others. Think about what you would want people to do to you, how you would want to have others react to you. Help people. Make their short span in all of existance a little better, because that's all the time that they get.
People who say that they would rather die than suffer probably haven't thought about it. I would rather choose existance, than non-existance, however bad it is. I've got one shot in all of the universe, and if it sucks, then I'm gonna do my best to make it better. If I'm in constant pain, I'll be seeking a way to make myself better. If there is no way, then I'll start drinking, turn to drugs or somesuch.. But I would never, never, want to die.
26 Jul 05
Originally posted by echeceroOh yeah, I don't believe in any particular god.
If you believe in God, then either those people were not true believers or failed to seek out the truth or the book we have now has "extra" stuff.
Yes, one would have to wonder. Of course, the first two possibilities you mention undermine the human authors of texts in the Bible. That includes Paul as well. The final one denies the completeness property of Bible. I don't know too many modern xtians that want to believe that.
26 Jul 05
Originally posted by TheSphinxAll you should believe in is you.... God is within, is a famous quote but a misunderstood one. God is within for you are your own god...the god figure head is merely a projection of that inner god you carry inside, your true self........ just noticed I'm sounding like a Buddhist,!
Do you REALLY believe in god?
Why?
And if you believe in god (no I won't waste a capital letter on the word god) then surely you must also beleive in the devil.
They come as a package - so it's a believe in one get one free type offer?
Do you really believe in what you have read in a book (and not such a good one at that) that was wri ...[text shortened]... ot being nasty, or meaning to start a riot, I'd just like to know why you beleive, that's all.
27 Jul 05
Originally posted by echeceroSince when is eating selflessly done for the benefit of others? Fixing your hair in the mirror, watching television, taking the closest parking spot, and self defense are evil as well.
[b]eating is bad If the point of the eating is eating, then yes. (self indulgence). If the point of the eating is pleasure, then yes. (self indulgence). If the point of the eating is to be able to continue life in order to help others, then no. (selflessness).
sacrificing one's life to fix another's hair is good As far as morality goes, yes, it would be a Good act. A very stupid one, but good as opposed to evil.[/b]
Assasinating a leader to avoid war, and therefore more deaths, is good. Killing someone with leopracy to avoid spreading it to others is good. Stealing a truckload from a grocery store to feed the poor is good.
Your definitions look good at first, but they are far from complete. A topic like this is simply not black and white.
27 Jul 05
Originally posted by yousersQuite frankly, I would argue that assassinating a world leader who was going to cause a war, and thereby avoiding such, certainly is an act of good, and I'm far from alone in that beliefe...look at any history book.
Since when is eating selflessly done for the benefit of others? Fixing your hair in the mirror, watching television, taking the closest parking spot, and self defense are evil as well.
Assasinating a leader to avoid war, and therefore more deaths, is good. Killing someone with leopracy to avoid spreading it to others is good. Stealing a truckload from a ...[text shortened]... good at first, but they are far from complete. A topic like this is simply not black and white.
Killing those with leprosy would not qualify, since the disease is not very contagious at all; though if you were misguided enough to believe you were acting to help others, then I would argue that your actions were good.
Stealing to feed the poor, while also misguided, is far from evil. How many consider the fairy tale version of Robin Hood to be evil?
As for you examples of evil, I would say that fixing one's hair or otherwise spending too much time on one's appearance is on the evil side of neutrality...though not always done for oneself entirely. I would say leaving closer parking spots as an act of courtesy would be a genuinely Good action, and hogging the best spots would indeed be treading the waters of evil. Self defense? Just like eating, if we allow ourselves to expire, then we are unable to continue helping others. So long as our goal is to indeed help others, then these actions are Good. Otherwise, they are neutral if not evil.
I think the difficulty here is that you're placing everything into one category or the other: good or evil. While I have offered a possible definition (the definition I try to live by) of good and evil, I do not believe every action is either good or evil. An act can be neither selfish nor selfless....and therefore, that act is neither good nor evil. It may be able to be said which side it is closer to, however, without being able to say it is completely on that side.
The point I was attempting to make is that we do not need God or the Bible to determine good and evil. I have heard people say over and over again that morality cannot exist without religion...and I simply do not agree with that statement. I have met many moral individuals who do not believe in God or souls or an afterlife, and their morals were not based on the leavings of religion, but on their own personal code of ethics based in sound reasoning. It isn't hard to figure out what is good for humanity and what is not; it is part of the social contract we are participate in. That is stronger than any religion.
27 Jul 05
Originally posted by echeceroOk, that is very reasonable of you to say that there are not clear cut definitions of what is good and evil. That brings us to the major problems of morality: determiniing which actions are "more good" and which are "more evil". You point toward "personal code[s] of ethics". This is a very relativistic sense of morality, which brings with it another host of problems. Let's consider a serial killer who lives by his own moral standards. He believes that murder is not necessarily evil. What determines that your "personal code" is accurate and his is not? You might say he is wrong because his actions do not fit your previous definition of 'good'. However, you cannot argue logically that your code is superior because his actions/beliefs to not align with them.
Quite frankly, I would argue that assassinating a world leader who was going to cause a war, and thereby avoiding such, certainly is an act of good, and I'm far from alone in that beliefe...look at any history book.
Killing those with leprosy would not qualify, since the disease is not very contagious at all; though if you were misguided enough to believe ...[text shortened]... ot; it is part of the social contract we are participate in. That is stronger than any religion.
27 Jul 05
1 edit
Originally posted by TheSphinxYouve got a GOOD POINT.
Hiya Tim,
Okay the book has been found. In ten thousand years times will people once believe in Harry Potter?
But, What great effect has Harry Potter had on the world, such as that the bible has?
Has it benefitted anyone, so physicaly enough that people recognise it to be a 'Good Book', capable of guiding people in a righteous way?
If we learn the source of wizadry and magic from the Harry Potter books then perhaps, in the future those will see them as guides to life. Hence Your Point.
Perhaps Harry Potter will be taught as fact in the future. (And not fiction - Who Knows?)
Bye.
27 Jul 05
Originally posted by Phledosnaa people are smarter then that, Do you know how many manuscripts there are backing up the bible?
Youve got a GOOD POINT.
But, What great effect has Harry Potter had on the world, such as that the bible has?
Has it benefitted anyone, so physicaly enough that people recognise it to be a 'Good Book', capable of guiding people in a righteous way?
If we learn the source of wizadry and magic from the Harry Potter books then perhaps, in the future t ...[text shortened]... erhaps Harry Potter will be taught as fact in the future. (And not fiction - Who Knows?)
Bye.
27 Jul 05
Originally posted by SerendipityWell I was going to write does that make me god? But then I realised I wouldn't believe in myself, and if you saw me play chess you may well agree!
All you should believe in is you.... God is within, is a famous quote but a misunderstood one. God is within for you are your own god...the god figure head is merely a projection of that inner god you carry inside, your true self........ just noticed I'm sounding like a Buddhist,!
27 Jul 05
People who say that they would rather die than suffer probably haven't thought about it. I would rather choose existance, than non-existance, however bad it is. I've got one shot in all of the universe, and if it sucks, then I'm gonna do my best to make it better. If I'm in constant pain, I'll be seeking a way to make myself better. If there is no way, then I'll start drinking, turn to drugs or somesuch.. But I would never, never, want to die.
To write "If I'm in constant pain, I'll be seeking a way to make myself better. If there is no way, then I'll start drinking, turn to drugs or somesuch.. But I would never, never, want to die." is someone who has never really suffered pain. No, I mean real pain. Pain that makes you scream and scream and scream.
I know this because I have suffered tremendous pain for the past 20 years. To say your'll strat drinking, believe me please whn I say I tried. I am on morphine 400mg per day, plus diazepam, Tramodole Tylex and a whole host of other drugs, but it only helps. I rate my pain in 0 - 10. 0 =no pain (ha ha ha) and 10 = I want to die. For the past 10 years it wavers hourly between 8.5 and 10. So I drink with the drugs, wanna know someting? I cannot get drunk. I detest whiskey and barcardi, but have drunk a bottle of each on seperate occaisions and been, okay truthfully, slightly merry. But the pain remains.
I am writing an autobiography of my life, paying most attention to my suffering. Here is an extract.
"Imagine your worst toothache, crossed with your worst migraine, crossed with your worst earache, crossed with the worst times when you have bitten your tongue, hit your thumb with a hammer and then treble it, and multiply it by the size of Africa and you are about halfway there. I make no apology if that sounds dramtic and overstated. Because that is the pain I have endured for a very very very long time."
But this is not the reason I don't believe in god. Even as a small child I had no interest in the bible at all. As I have said elsewhere, I HAVE tried to read it, a page a day over months. But it just doesn't interest me at all. Some, some might say this is my payback from 'The' god.