Does might make right?

Originally posted by whodey
2. All flesh and, in fact, all creation are made by God. He gives and he takes away. Therefore, who is to say he has no right to do so?
3. The assumption is that God should leave the women and children, so to speak, alone and only kill those who we may agree are wicked. However, God knows the future. God knows how those "innocent" people will turn out if left to live. Only God knows this, not you or I.

So should we leave a sick child to die? Clearly God wants it dead, who are we to go against his will?
I think I have asked before but you didn't give a clear answer.

Originally posted by LemonJello
One more time: the subject of abortion has nothing to do with my examples related to neonates. I'm frankly still at a loss why you brought the subject up.

Because God is being accused of being a monster for targeting the "innocet" when, in fact, ONLY man does this.

Originally posted by LemonJello
No, I'm not asking you what you think love is. I'm asking what you think free will is. I think you do yourself a notional disservice when you conflate the two. I think what you want to say is that free will is necessary for other goods, such as love; but also that free will is itself a substantial good. Plus, I'm having trouble taking you seriously wh ...[text shortened]... dicy more or less completely on free will and yet cannot tell me what you think free will is.

Ok then, I will (no pun intended) give it a shot.

Free will is the God given gift of being able to choose. God lays before us what we are able to choose.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Yes, and this is what I and others have been asking you (e.g., with the example of the suffering neonate). I don't find any of your answers, if we can call them that, to this question even remotely reasonable.

I have attempted to answer many times. I will try one more time. Suffering occurs because of sin and sin is a result of Adam and Eve having the free will to choose sin and free will is necessary because God is a God of love and love demands free will. But then you bring up the notion that the "innocent" can live in a vaccum, so to speak, while existing in a world of sin. Perhaps God should isolate them from others or prevent others from "hurting" them? Thus the time to act would have been when Adam and Eve fell in the garden. After all, were their offspring not "innocent"? That was the time to end suffering, no? So how does one then seperate the sin nature from the "innocent" offspring that sinners produced? If the sin nature was absent from their offspring, would the child really be a product of the two of them? Would the offsrping simply be a whole new species or creation? Mankind would then have truly become nonexistent and you and I would not be here debating this today. Then, I suppose, one would then have killed off Adam and Eve once the new creation had been born so as not to "infect" the new creation. Then again, why would they be needed at all? After all, if they produced offspring they would be sinners like themselves. God could have just killed them on the spot after the fall and started over. I am glad he did not choose this coarse of action. I rather enjoy my existance.

However, you may then object and ask why God then allows those to suffer who are "innocent" who have a sin nature such as an infant? This presumption, however, is problematic. For example, the parents are fallen and prone to errors. Now we have a race of beings who have allowed sin to enter into them and thus allowed death to take them and their offspring at some point. Now we are genetically inclined to die because of having sinned. Now our bodies may produce cancer, or heart disease, or birth defects etc. If one were to dissallow this from happening, again you would, in effect, be preventing mankind from reproducing. What you would then have are a whole different race of beings and you and I would not be here now.

Assuming that God exists, when an infant dies or suffers the question then becomes:

1. Does God care about the infant?
2. Is God able to help the infant?
3. Does God want the infant to suffer and/or die?
4. Is there something preventing God from helping the infant if, in fact, he cares for the infant and wishes to help the infant and he is even though he is all powerfull?

I think I have covered all of the questions. If you can think of others let me know. To the first question I would say without hesitation that yes, God cares for the infant and for ALL of his creation. Regarding the second question, yes, God is able to help the infant and prevent them from suffering or dying. These two questions are the easiest of the lot, however, the rest are a bit tricky to answer. Regarding the third question, perhaps God wills a baby to die. For example, God certainly willed babies to die when he told the Israelites to kill ALL of the inhabitants of Canaan. Does this then mean that the babies were the target of his wrath? No. It is entirely possible that God forsaw what would happen if they had been allowed to live. For example, the current struggle for supremacy in the Holy Land today, is it a struggle of the original combatants? No, in fact, they are the offspring of those who started such fighting. The dispute today is merely the inheritance that those "innocent" children fell into long ago. So we now see the continuation of generation after generation after generation of bloody nonstop violance. Am I suggesting that the Israelites or the Palestinians should annhilate the other? No. What I am saying is that it is my view that the nation of Israel was put in place specifically to bring the Messiah into the world. Would this nation have produced the Messiah had the original inhabitants been allowed to coexist with them? Would their offspring not have simply continue fighting over the same real estate and at some point possibly prevented the Messiah from coming into the world had they lived? Would the Israelite people succumb to the gods of Canaan had they been allowed to live thus causing them to loose sight of the God of the Bible thus destroying his work in the world to produce the Messiah? Only God has the forsight to answer such questions. As you know, it is my view that the real suffering that is to be avoided is a spiritual death and it can only be avoided via the Messiah and his sacrifice. All other suffering and death, although distastful and to be avoided if possible, pales in comparison to spiritual death because one is temperal and the other is permanent. Regarding the fourth question, perhaps there is something preventing God from helping the infant. The scenerio I listed already is a prime example. Other scenerios may exist that are far more complicated.

Originally posted by smw6869
We are all born in the image and likeness of God. Therefore, whatever we do is God-like. Kill, rape, wars are all OK. We are all God! Nothing is right and nothing is wrong.

Unless of coarse you find yourself before God to give an account for your life.

Originally posted by whodey
Because God is being accused of being a monster for targeting the "innocet" when, in fact, ONLY man does this.

How is permitting an infant to live a short excruciating existence less morally offensive than aborting
a non-sentient fetus?

Nemesio

Originally posted by whodey
Would this nation have produced the Messiah had the original inhabitants been allowed to coexist with them? Would their offspring not have simply continue fighting over the same real estate and at some point possibly prevented the Messiah from coming into the world had they lived?

I see it all now! The Jews and Germans were destined to keep fighting and so God commanded Hitler to carry out genocide on the Jews so that the second coming would go smoothly! The lord surely works in mysterious ways!
Why didn't you from the very beginning of the discussion just say "God must have a reason for genocide and we may not know the reason but must trust that it is a good one." instead of all this nonsense trying to justify it or find possible explanations etc when you really don't know and probably cant know his true motives.

I notice you still haven't answered my question about whether we should help a dying infant that God has turned his back on.

Originally posted by whodey
Unless of coarse you find yourself before God to give an account for your life.

I would say to God, You made me to be like youself. You wouldn't do wrong and therefore neither would i. Anything goes. Could the devil turn God into evil. Of course not. Therefore neither could he do it to me. Whatever i do is what God would do.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So should we leave a sick child to die? Clearly God wants it dead...

That's not so clear, actually.

Originally posted by Nemesio
How is permitting an infant to live a short excruciating existence less morally offensive than aborting
a non-sentient fetus?

Nemesio

God targets wickedness and sees the future. Man targets the innocent and assumes to know what the future will hold.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I notice you still haven't answered my question about whether we should help a dying infant that God has turned his back on.[/b]

If God has turned his back on someone whether it be an infant or otherwise I think it little consequence as to whether we should help the infant or not. Their fate will be sealed with or without our intervention.

Originally posted by smw6869
I would say to God, You made me to be like youself. You wouldn't do wrong and therefore neither would i. Anything goes. Could the devil turn God into evil. Of course not. Therefore neither could he do it to me. Whatever i do is what God would do.

Good luck with that explanation. 😕

Originally posted by lucifershammer
That's not so clear, actually.

It is under wodeys stated beliefs. He says the suffering is a direct result of sin and that the infants death would be because God has chosen that the infant must die.

Originally posted by whodey
If God has turned his back on someone whether it be an infant or otherwise I think it little consequence as to whether we should help the infant or not. Their fate will be sealed with or without our intervention.

So do you ever help others that you see are suffering? Its starting to look like you are as monstrous as your God.