Dualism

Originally posted by twhitehead
So what do people think about the existence of the abstract?
Do numbers exist?
Do words exist?
Do computer programs exist?
If the brain is a type of computer program that could theoretically be copied from one physical location to another, could it be thought of as an abstract entity?

"So what do people think about the existence of the abstract?"

Abstractions exist.

"Do numbers exist?"

Yes

"Do words exist?"

Yes

"Do computer programs exist?"

Yes

"If the brain is a type of computer program that could theoretically be copied from one physical location to another, could it be thought of as an abstract entity?"

Very interesting. Imagine that the program of the brain of Einstein could be copied to a computer. Would the computer be able to recreate the kind of abstract thought processes of the living?

Originally posted by josephw
"Do numbers exist?"

Yes

Is the number 3, a single timeless entity that exists every where it is instantiated, or are there lots of number 3's? How many 3's exist in this post? One or many?
How many exist once 10 people see the post on their computers and read it?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Is the number 3, a single timeless entity that exists every where it is instantiated, or are there lots of number 3's? How many 3's exist in this post? One or many?
How many exist once 10 people see the post on their computers and read it?

So you're saying the number 3 doesn't exist?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So what do people think about the existence of the abstract?
Do numbers exist?
Do words exist?
Do computer programs exist?
If the brain is a type of computer program that could theoretically be copied from one physical location to another, could it be thought of as an abstract entity?

I am not sure 'exist' is the right word here. When I hear 'exist' in reference to a computer program, I think of a specific program someone actually thought up, or wrote.

As for numbers, my first math book said "a number is an idea". Stated that way, it seems that the idea doesn't exist until it appears inside someone's skull, even though certain mathematical concepts are objectively true whether anyone knows it, or not.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So what do people think about the existence of the abstract?
Do numbers exist?
Do words exist?
Do computer programs exist?
If the brain is a type of computer program that could theoretically be copied from one physical location to another, could it be thought of as an abstract entity?

Do you mean copying the brain qua brain (jellylike organ), or its way of processing inputs and developing outputs? Or do you mean computer simulate it so that the simulation would produce the same outputs for the same inputs? (Outputs include memories.) But also, would the copy include any genetic propensities for say, Alzheimer's?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So what do people think about the existence of the abstract?
Do numbers exist?
Do words exist?
Do computer programs exist?
If the brain is a type of computer program that could theoretically be copied from one physical location to another, could it be thought of as an abstract entity?

Edit:
"So what do people think about the existence of the abstract?
Do numbers exist?
Do words exist?
Do computer programs exist?"

They are neither existent, nor non existent, nor both, nor neither;



Edit: "If the brain... ...entity?"

Is the reprinted content of a book an abstract entity?

😵

Originally posted by josephw
Why? vistesd is a non-dualist. Which is rather odd since "being" a non-dualist reinforces the concept of dualism by assuming the opposite position.

Dualism is inescapable.

Kindly please explain why dualism is inescapable, my Theopneuste feer😵

Originally posted by twhitehead
So here goes my understanding of the concept:
Abstract concepts like numbers, most of mathematics, words, stories etc can be considered both existent and independent of the materials with which they are represented. Thus there are two types of existence: physical existence and abstract existence.

Oh, this is the most interesting topic I've seen here yet. Thank you. 🙂

Thus there are two types of existence: physical existence and abstract existence.

I would say that dualism, as stated here, isn't real. There is no real dividing line between the abstract and the physical that allows us to confidently talk about the abstract as a reality in its own right (independent of physical reality), which is why it gets blurry when you think of abstract things like numbers represented in physical media, like on a computer screen. Instead, I see the abstract (numbers, information, ideas) as an extension of the physical. Our very mind (sorry) is an abstract extension of our physical brain. Dualism is a tool, an abstract categorisation, to help us make sense of the physical reality we exist in, as are all abstract concepts. That's how I see it anyway.

Originally posted by black beetle
Kindly please explain why dualism is inescapable, my Theopneuste feer😵

Hello bb, been awhile. Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.

I'll be honest, I don't know if I can explain why dualism is inescapable, much less whether or not I'd be right.

But here's a stab at it. Mind and matter. Mind may exist independent of matter, but not matter from mind. Maybe. Matter is energy, but mind is intangible with respect to the existence of matter. Mind is spirit. That is, it's invisible, not detectable by matter, which is understood by the senses, but mind has the capacity to know the spirit.

Matter and energy are a product of mind, separate from mind as a creation of mind. Mind existed prior to, and independent of matter and energy. Dualism. If all that is true, then dualism is inescapable.

I am interested in what you think about that.

Originally posted by josephw
So you're saying the number 3 doesn't exist?

No, not at all. I am asking about its existence. How is its existence similar to, or different from, the existence of material objects.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
I am not sure 'exist' is the right word here. When I hear 'exist' in reference to a computer program, I think of a specific program someone actually thought up, or wrote.

So, does a computer program that someone thought up and wrote, exist? Is it a single existence, or does it have multiple existences every time it is copped? Is Microsoft Windows 8, and existent entity, or are there merely many copies of that OS each of which exists, but for which there is no abstract existence?

As for numbers, my first math book said "a number is an idea". Stated that way, it seems that the idea doesn't exist until it appears inside someone's skull, even though certain mathematical concepts are objectively true whether anyone knows it, or not.
If the idea is written down on paper, does it still exist on the paper? Is it a copy of the idea, or the exact same idea? Are there now two ideas, or one?

Originally posted by JS357
Do you mean copying the brain qua brain (jellylike organ), or its way of processing inputs and developing outputs? Or do you mean computer simulate it so that the simulation would produce the same outputs for the same inputs? (Outputs include memories.) But also, would the copy include any genetic propensities for say, Alzheimer's?

You can answer the questions for each of the cases or any of the cases.

Originally posted by black beetle
Is the reprinted content of a book an abstract entity?

😵

Yes. The 'Lord of the Rings' is an abstract entity. It has many copies and has even been made into movies. One problem with granting existence to the abstract is that there are many different abstractions for each physical entity. 'The Lord of the Rings' includes many different editions, movies, games etc. Each variation is an abstract concept.

Originally posted by josephw
Dualism. If all that is true, then dualism is inescapable.

So, in summary, if dualism is true, then dualism is inescapable?

Originally posted by josephw
But here's a stab at it. Mind and matter. Mind may exist independent of matter, but not matter from mind. Maybe. Matter is energy, but mind is intangible with respect to the existence of matter. Mind is spirit. That is, it's invisible, not detectable by matter, which is understood by the senses, but mind has the capacity to know the spirit.

Can you say the same about the abstract? I know you have religious reasons for some of your statements about the mind, so I would rather stay away from it to some extent.
Is the number 3, intangible with respect to matter? Is it undetectable by matter?