26 Mar 11
Originally posted by Darax The GoodI certainly do dispute it. My father lived through the Second World War and assures me that the outlook at that time was far worse than anything I have lived through.
I don't dispute that to us, living now, it might look a lot worse than it did to our ancestors.
26 Mar 11
Originally posted by Darax The GoodWell your answering the issue by stating that no one knows the exact time that Jesus would come, so that's why he gave those signs. And it was not just one sign or event but a (composite) sign of many things. Again all these things have always happened, right? But by the way Jesus explained these events it would have to be something out of the ordinary or else they wouldn't stand out for any of us to pick up on them..
I don't dispute that to us, living now, it might look a lot worse than it did to our ancestors. There are things we could say are warning signs and things that I would agree are warning signs. I'm concerned about this too, but I don't want to make the mistakes our parents did and their parents did, and dedicate my life to watching out for some dista ...[text shortened]... ading the good news of the gospel doesn't require spreading the fearful news of armageddon.
And as for as our ancestors go if one would just go back about a hundred years ago with the event of WW1 many historians will agree that the world as humans knew it changed when that war started. Again..there have always been wars but not like this one
But it's obvious those scriptures and words by Jesus were said and written for a very serious reason. And by his statement that one would have to use ""discernment"" would show that on the surface it may not be clearly seen by many.
But I think it's very telling that personally without anything I've said to anyone in just everyday conversations I've had with people at work, I've had at least 4 this last couple months make almost the same statement that something is up and they have no idea what is happening and if we'll survive all this crazy stuff that's going on all over the earth.
And if one would just notice all the new TV shows and movies that are putting out movie after movie and TV show after show of humans survival after some type of destruction of society as we know it. It seems that it's getting some peoples notice.
26 Mar 11
Look back 14 years to the approach to the millenium. There were disaster movies then too. Mid 90's-the stock market was going crazy, I remember fending off people fearing the 'seismic' stock charts their ministers had told them to fear as signs of hte last days. Remember the Cold war. I was taught that it was inevitable that nuclear war would break out between the US and USSR. I remember pamphlets in the early 90's warning of people being barcoded by now. How often did Christ wield fear in his days? Bait your hook with a worm, not a shark.
What if the last day was tomorrow? How should we be any different? I submit that if it isn't, if we carry on for another decade, another century, these fears being planted may be twisted into seeds of doubt. Not a single person alive has the wisdom to really see it coming. And really, that's my point. When judgement day comes I suspect we're all going to be quite surprised by the real truth. Not a single one of our priests, pastors, ministers, rabbis, imans, or other spiritual leaders are going to have it right-because those who taught them were falliable men. Just as we are.
Were we truly living up to Christ's standards we'd be doing something to help clean up and heal where these disasters happen, and wouldn't have time for this debate.
27 Mar 11
Originally posted by Darax The GoodOk......
Look back 14 years to the approach to the millenium. There were disaster movies then too. Mid 90's-the stock market was going crazy, I remember fending off people fearing the 'seismic' stock charts their ministers had told them to fear as signs of hte last days. Remember the Cold war. I was taught that it was inevitable that nuclear war would brea ...[text shortened]... lean up and heal where these disasters happen, and wouldn't have time for this debate.
27 Mar 11
Originally posted by galveston75So, you believe a Biblical prophesy is being fulfilled. However, you see this fulfillment in your personal life, in what you hear from other people and a feeling you get from watching TV. You believe that only some people can sense this prophesy fulfillment (because you are good Christians I presume), and it has nothing to do with real world events such as the frequency of earthquakes or wars.
But I think it's very telling that personally without anything I've said to anyone in just everyday conversations I've had with people at work, I've had at least 4 this last couple months make almost the same statement that something is up and they have no idea what is happening and if we'll survive all this crazy stuff that's going on all over the eart ...[text shortened]... of destruction of society as we know it. It seems that it's getting some peoples notice.
Am I correct so far?
27 Mar 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadYes you are correct that bible prophecy is being fulfilled now and actually has been for many decades. And it has nothing to do with me being a Christain or not and has nothing to do with you. It has to do with God and his son working out God's will and in the eventual restoring of what Adam lost for us all and earthquakes and wars are a part of the events that Jesus spoke of as signs of his presence. So if one either refuses to accept what Jesus spoke of or just doesn't care, that does not change the obvious facts and cannot stop them from being fulfilled.
So, you believe a Biblical prophesy is being fulfilled. However, you see this fulfillment in your personal life, in what you hear from other people and a feeling you get from watching TV. You believe that only some people can sense this prophesy fulfillment (because you are good Christians I presume), and it has nothing to do with real world events such as the frequency of earthquakes or wars.
Am I correct so far?
The Bible makes it clear that most would not see and recognize these sign just as most did not heed the warnings before the flood of Noah's day. " They took no note ( probably boasted that it could never happen ) and continued on with their everyday life's until the flood swept them all away."
28 Mar 11
“Ridiculers”
According to the Bible writer Jude, Christ’s apostles sounded the following warning: “In the last time there will be ridiculers, proceeding according to their own desires for ungodly things.”—Jude 17, 18.
The desire for life in a clean new world can easily be replaced by “desires for ungodly things.” This is especially dangerous today because of the world’s methods of expression and communication. Never before in human history have violence, spiritism, and sexual immorality been paraded to such an extent. They are often the theme of radio and music presentations, and they are seen in numerous TV programs, videos, advertisements, books, and magazines.
The sign points to the end of such ungodliness. Naturally, then, some people who have an appetite for ungodly things ridicule the sign. As foretold, they argue that “all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”—2 Peter 3:3, 4.
28 Mar 11
Originally posted by galveston75Now you are confusing me. Are you saying that there are actual signs that we can all see such as an actual increase in earthquakes or wars, or are you saying that only some people can see the signs (ie they are not actual concrete events.)
It has to do with God and his son working out God's will and in the eventual restoring of what Adam lost for us all and earthquakes and wars are a part of the events that Jesus spoke of as signs of his presence.
You seem to keep changing which it is.
So if one either refuses to accept what Jesus spoke of or just doesn't care, that does not change the obvious facts and cannot stop them from being fulfilled.
If the facts are so obvious, you should be able to point them out. So far, the only facts you have given are that four people talked to you and that there are more movies being made about a given subject.
When I asked you for more concrete facts you essentially said I could not see the events unless I had "discernment" and had read some scriptures.
So please be a bit clearer and explain to me whether or not these events/signs are real concrete events that we can actually see / discuss or are they only visible to some people?
28 Mar 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadI'm not trying to be rude so don't take it that way but do you not watch the news, read the newspaper or listen to events that are happening worldwide on a daily basis? Do you not see the degrading of morals and what people accept now as opposed to just a few decades ago? The bible is very clear on morals and what God expects of humans. Things that are accepted today would have never been spoken of in any morally conscience setting not that many years ago. Music, movies, TV? Has it not changed in it's morals?
Now you are confusing me. Are you saying that there are actual signs that we can all see such as an actual increase in earthquakes or wars, or are you saying that only some people can see the signs (ie they are not actual concrete events.)
You seem to keep changing which it is.
[b]So if one either refuses to accept what Jesus spoke of or just doesn't ...[text shortened]... l concrete events that we can actually see / discuss or are they only visible to some people?
Another sign Jesus gave was wars and reports of wars. Can you tell me the number of days, not weeks or months but days that there have not been a war of some type on our planet since WW1 started?
Again........Jesus said "discernment" is what one would need to see and understand what he said and what would be needed to see these things. Do you understand at all what that means?
Wiki explains: "Discernment is a term used to describe the activity of determining the value of a certain subject or event. Typically, it is used to describe the activity of going past the mere perception of something, to making detailed judgments about that thing. As a virtue, a discerning individual is considered to possess wisdom, and be of good judgement; especially so with regard to subject matter often overlooked by others".
Now this does not mean at all that a person that misses this point is bad or wicked or does not care. It simply means that for whatever reason, such as being too busy and consumed by a career for example, that one has not taken the time and effort to ponder and research an issue such as this.
And the Bible makes it clear that if one is searching for this insight, God will let them see it and get the meaning of it's importance.
28 Mar 11
Originally posted by galveston75I don't watch the news a lot, but when I do, I am not convinced that events now are any more significant than those in the past. When I challenged you earlier in the thread you seemed to change your stance to include the world wars and before. So I am really not sure now which periods I am supposed to be comparing.
I'm not trying to be rude so don't take it that way but do you not watch the news, read the newspaper or listen to events that are happening worldwide on a daily basis?
But in general, I would say that the world is a safer place now than in my fathers time.
Do you think otherwise? If so, do you have more than your feeling from news reports to go on? Are you perhaps watching a different tv station from me?
Do you not see the degrading of morals and what people accept now as opposed to just a few decades ago?
I wasn't here a few decades ago so its very hard to judge. However, certain types of morals like prostitution, illegitimate children etc seem to have been quite prevalent in the past. AIDS spread through Africa in the 80's and 90's which is a few decades ago.
Things that are accepted today would have never been spoken of in any morally conscience setting not that many years ago.
Well maybe you are not in a morally conscious setting now. Give me more details about these 'morally conscious' settings you are talking about.
Music, movies, TV? Has it not changed in it's morals?
The Hollywood ones, yes I would say so. But I like to watch Chinese soapies which have much stricter moral standards.
Another sign Jesus gave was wars and reports of wars. Can you tell me the number of days, not weeks or months but days that there have not been a war of some type on our planet since WW1 started?
Can you list for me the days before WW1 started?
Can you refer me to a graph or chart showing frequencies of wars, or is this another 'gut feel' thing.
Again........Jesus said "discernment" is what one would need to see and understand what he said and what would be needed to see these things. Do you understand at all what that means?
No. I cant understand how you can count wars differently from me. Do you have access to information I don't? Are you unable to send me that information because of this 'discernment'? I honestly do not understand why one needs some special attributes to count wars, earthquakes, average age ratings on TV series or even promiscuity or other measures of morality.
Now this does not mean at all that a person that misses this point is bad or wicked or does not care. It simply means that for whatever reason, such as being too busy and consumed by a career for example, that one has not taken the time and effort to ponder and research an issue such as this.
For someone who claims to have taken the time and effort to ponder and research you seem to have remarkably flimsy evidence. So far you have given me nothing but here say and hints. You don't even state that wars have increased or morals have got measurably worse, instead you hint at it by asking me question.
And the Bible makes it clear that if one is searching for this insight, God will let them see it and get the meaning of it's importance.
But surely if you have seen it, you can pass it on? Or is there a no-copy clause that prevents you from giving me a war graph?
28 Mar 11
Originally posted by galveston75Can you tell me the number of days that there have not been a war of some type on our planet since humans have come into existence?
Another sign Jesus gave was wars and reports of wars. Can you tell me the number of days, not weeks or months but days that there have not been a war of some type on our planet since WW1 started?
28 Mar 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadAs I've said one either sees it and gets it or one doesn't or doesn't want to. Another issue with ones not understanding and seeing these warnings and issues are described at Ehp 4:19 where it states "that many as time passed would lose all moral sence". It still does not mean one would be a wicked or mean person, but just not aware of the obvious.
I don't watch the news a lot, but when I do, I am not convinced that events now are any more significant than those in the past. When I challenged you earlier in the thread you seemed to change your stance to include the world wars and before. So I am really not sure now which periods I am supposed to be comparing.
But in general, I would say that the wo ...[text shortened]... t on? Or is there a no-copy clause that prevents you from giving me a war graph?
Many have lost that ability to use their moral sences or compass.
So the detailed facts and numbers you want are not needed as it may not convince anyway.
28 Mar 11
Originally posted by NordlysNot many: http://www.warscholar.com/Timeline.html ((((Take your time with this site and do some comparing.....)))))
Can you tell me the number of days that there have not been a war of some type on our planet since humans have come into existence?
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/massacre.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll
http://www.historyguy.com/21st_century_wars.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/story?id=5207645&page=1
http://www.historyguy.com/new_and_recent_conflicts.html
28 Mar 11
Originally posted by Proper KnobBumped this as no one answered.
Okay. What specific part will earthquakes play as part of this phrophecy? What [b]exactly are you looking for with regard to earthquakes?[/b]
What specific part will earthquakes play as part of this phrophecy? What exactly are you looking for with regard to earthquakes?