Einstein helps God..?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I agree , but the point is that Jeff's experience of events occuring in time would be very different from Bob's because of relativity.

This is what is meant regarding God. God experiences your future choices in a different way than you do. The choice you will make in 1 year's time is being experienced by God in what might be called an eternal "now" ...[text shortened]... 0 years then " Who is right? Or are they both right? When exactly does Bob retire?

Well, God is conjecture to me, so speculating what God experiences wouldn't make sense to factor in. I will leave that for someone else to debate. 🙂

As for what Bob and Jeff experience, they are both right! It all depends what reference frame you are looking at. If Bob travelled with Jeff for 20 years (as far as they experience) at the same relative speed to Earth, when they come back, it will be 2200.

Originally posted by lausey
Well, God is conjecture to me, so speculating what God experiences wouldn't make sense to factor in. I will leave that for someone else to debate. 🙂

As for what Bob and Jeff experience, they are both right! It all depends what reference frame you are looking at. If Bob travelled with Jeff for 20 years (as far as they experience) at the same relative speed to Earth, when they come back, it will be 2200.

Well, God is conjecture to me, so speculating what God experiences wouldn't make sense to factor in. I will leave that for someone else to debate.
---------------------lausey----------------


At least one thing can be said for the Jeff/Bob story that in theory it's not paradoxical for a particular event (Bob's retirement) to be experienced in very different ways (in time) by both sentient parties.

Originally posted by knightmeister
At least one thing can be said for the Jeff/Bob story that in theory it's not paradoxical for a particular event (Bob's retirement) to be experienced in very different ways (in time) by both sentient parties.

In your other thread, I asked the question

So, how do you answer the dilemma? God could tell me about every 'free choice' that I will make tomorrow, and I would be unable to do otherwise.

http://www.timeforchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=108443&page=4#post_2027058

You directed me to this thread for answers, but I see nothing here that pertains to my question. In the Jeff/Bob scenario, Jeff can only travel forward in time, and thus is never able to tell Bob about his future [he would have to be able to go back in time (from Bob's perspective) to do so].

Originally posted by SwissGambit
In your other thread, I asked the question

So, how do you answer the dilemma? God could tell me about every 'free choice' that I will make tomorrow, and I would be unable to do otherwise.

http://www.timeforchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=108443&page=4#post_2027058

You directed me to this thread for answers, but I see nothing h ...[text shortened]... t his future [he would have to be able to go back in time (from Bob's perspective) to do so].

So, how do you answer the dilemma? God could tell me about every 'free choice' that I will make tomorrow, and I would be unable to do otherwise.
--------swiss gambit---------------

First of all , bear in mind that I am trying to answer mutliple posts on my own with little assistance and quite a lot of hostility to my position.

My answer to the dilemma is that the dilemma is created by our unconscious assumptions about newtonian time. The dilemma is "solved" by realising that T (tommorrow's free choice you will make) has both happened and not happened simultaneously.

Hitler in 1938 will invade Poland in one year's time. You know it will happen because for you it's happened. For him it hasn't . Both perspectives are true. Because of relativity we are unable to say when an event actually happens because there is no big clock in the cosmic sky.

So in reality T has not happened and has happened - it's both. You are free to do what you like because for you it hasn't happened yet. And the truth is untill you do it , it really hasn't happened. But it's also true that it has happened , from God's point of view.

Originally posted by knightmeister
So, how do you answer the dilemma? God could tell me about every 'free choice' that I will make tomorrow, and I would be unable to do otherwise.
--------swiss gambit---------------

First of all , bear in mind that I am trying to answer mutliple posts on my own with little assistance and quite a lot of hostility to my position.

My answer to the asn't happened. But it's also true that it has happened , from God's point of view.

FAIL

Originally posted by SwissGambit
FAIL

Stop beating about the bush and say what you feel!!!

BTW- Sir Isaac Newton would be proud of you

Originally posted by knightmeister
It's as though Jeff went through a minor sort of suspended animation which slowed him down, making him lose a day over the 30 years.
--------young------------------

So what happens to that day when Jeff returns?

It was spread out among all the other days of his personal 30 years.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Incorrect. Bob would have already done it, and felt himself doing it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------young--------------

True , from Jeff's perspective he would have already done it , but from Bob;s he would not ( at least I think so )

"Part of the concept of absolute time was the assumption that it ...[text shortened]... l was running away from it. "

http://www.lightandmatter.com/html_books/6mr/ch01/ch01.html

That requires the two observers to be in two different frames of motion, but you're saying that the two people are interacting with one another face to face once Jeff returns. While Jeff was travelling time acted differently for him, but once the two are in the same room, moving at the same speed, their personal times move together. However the time of the journey was different for each. Bob's frame just had things happening a little faster so that an extra day was squeezed in.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Timetravel results in split timelines (or paradoxes).
--------------------------whitey-------------------

And one of those paradoxes might be that Jeff could "know" what Bob does "before" Bob feels he has actually done it.

If we extend and exaggerate the time dilation effect to Jeff's time frame moving ten times slower than Bob's then Jeff mig ...[text shortened]... reality the whole thing is more likely to be similar to the Bob and Jeff scenario.

No!

Jeff experiences one year. Bob experiences ten years. This means that Bob's heart pumps ten times for each pump of Jeff's heart - that if Bob saw Jeff, Jeff would appear to be in slow motion, and if Jeff saw Bob, he'd look like he was on fast forward. They're both always in the present, but things happen faster for Bob than for Jeff.

When Bob's watch ran for a year, Jeff's journey would have only lasted a little over a month as far as Jeff was concerned. If Jeff can see Bob 10 of Bob's years later, then Bob also sees himself 10 of his own years later.

If God were to "travel into the future" it would simply mean that he would become very, very slow, so that our time would pass very quickly for him. Once he got to the future, it would be the present, and the old present would be the past, for everyone everywhere. How much time any one observer would have experienced during any interval between events would vary, but the present is always the present for everyone.

Originally posted by jaywill
Ah, [b]The Time Machine (1960, Best Cinematography). One of the ten best SciFi pictures of all time IMO.

Great musical score too, by composer Russell Garcia.

Both versions of the movie are close to the novel in that regard of a person traversing the ages in a moment. Other embellishments of Well's novel exist. But the novel graphically discribe ...[text shortened]... what he saw in his revelation was presented to him as "signs" or symbolic visions.[/b]

The way that Wells described the protagonist's experience going forward through time is exactly how I think it would look to a real time traveller, except for a few things.

1) The Time Traveller would never have been able to return.

2) The Time Traveller would not have been able to stay still relative to the Earth, watching it happen. He'd have to be zipping along nearly at the speed of light relative to the Earth.

3) The "fading out" appearance of the Traveller to onlookers would likely not occur. His Machine would be rocketing through space REALLY fast and he'd be nearly motionless inside it relative to an outside observer.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I agree , but the point is that Jeff's experience of events occuring in time would be very different from Bob's because of relativity.

This is what is meant regarding God. God experiences your future choices in a different way than you do. The choice you will make in 1 year's time is being experienced by God in what might be called an eternal "now" 0 years then " Who is right? Or are they both right? When exactly does Bob retire?

It sounds like God moves at the speed of light! If so, however, he'd be unable to do anything. He would have done nothing as far as humans are concerned in all time and never would do anything in the future. No miracles, no coming to Earth as Jesus, nothing. He'd be a frozen statue which didn't even think.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I agree , but the point is that Jeff's experience of events occuring in time would be very different from Bob's because of relativity.

This is what is meant regarding God. God experiences your future choices in a different way than you do. The choice you will make in 1 year's time is being experienced by God in what might be called an eternal "now" ...[text shortened]... 0 years then " Who is right? Or are they both right? When exactly does Bob retire?

Both are right. Bob will retire in two of Jeff's years which are the same as twenty of Bob's years. When Jeff comes back, he'll have experienced two years, and Bob 20.

Originally posted by knightmeister
So, how do you answer the dilemma? God could tell me about every 'free choice' that I will make tomorrow, and I would be unable to do otherwise.
--------swiss gambit---------------

First of all , bear in mind that I am trying to answer mutliple posts on my own with little assistance and quite a lot of hostility to my position.

My answer to the asn't happened. But it's also true that it has happened , from God's point of view.

In 1938 I didn't exist so I didn't know anything. You're using present tense for both Hitler in 1938 and the person you're talking to in 2009. It's meaningless to say both people are experiencing something simultaneously in that way.

Listen. If we look at the order of events not by time but by the amount of entropy in the universe, it might help. The amount of entropy in fact is a sort of "absolute timeline".

Entropy always increases. We know that. Let us call the amount of entropy at the beginning of the universe 0, and it's increasing. Let's say right now there is X entropy in the universe.

Someday there will be X+Y entropy in the universe. As entropy increases from X to X+Y, Bob experiences twenty years, Jeff experiences two years. For Bob the local entropy is increasing much more than Jeff's local entropy, but the total entropy in the universe is always the same for both of them.

A year for one person can be five years for another, but in both cases, the total entropy of the universe increased by exactly the same amount for both people.

"Knowing the future" means experiencing what things are like in the X+Y entropy world when total entropy is still X. In a non deterministic universe this is simply impossible, even though some people experience more or less increase in local entropy as the total entropy increased by Y.

That might not help you, but it's the best explanation of how reality works that I can provide.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Eintein's theory of relativity does say that it's possible for time travel into the future (yes?)

Yes.

And further: It's easy to travel forward in time.
Wait 60 seconds and you've been travelling one whole minute into the future.
Go backward in time, however, is a bit harder...

Originally posted by knightmeister
First of all , bear in mind that I am trying to answer mutliple posts on my own with little assistance and quite a lot of hostility to my position.

Why do you think it is that you have so little assistance? You seem to think that all opposition is 'atheist' in nature but why don't you have any theist support?

Because of relativity we are unable to say when an event actually happens because there is no big clock in the cosmic sky.
You are essentially trying to use a branch of science you don't understand to justify not understanding your own argument. Relativity changes nothing with regards to your argument.