Escaping Eternal Torment

Originally posted by sonship
Folks, in the past I think we discussed forgiveness of enemies. I probably wrote something to the effect that concerning transgressions God said that vengence is His and that He will repay.

It is not the eagerness to see your enemy punished that motivates forgiveness.
It is however the realization that a final balancing of the moral scales cannot fail ...[text shortened]... ot fail to balance the moral scales of the universe. Vindication is left up to God as God wills.

I agree we are to forgive others and even more than that we are to treat those that are
against us not as enemies. One of the most powerful stories I have ever heard was from
some Christians from Rwanda that survived the genocide that took place there. The
church we used to go to in California worked with them taking care of some of their
needs. A few of them came over to spend some time with us, they spoke at our church,
and we got them into a few other places to speak too.

All of the stories they told were powerful, I couldn't do justice to them. The one I want to
share was one of the guys that came over, his wife and children were murdered by a guy
with a machete. When it was all said and done this guy was caught and convicted and
sent to prison for that crime.

The Christian who lost his family in that brutal way wanted to go see this guy while in jail
just to see him and look him in eye. When he met the guy who killed his family, this guy
said he was sorry he was raised to hate his people and thought he was doing what he
was supposed to. Since that time he became a Christian, and he said he had no hope
he could be forgiven by this guy. So the man who lost his family realized he had to forgive
him, and he ended up sponsoring him. They became friends and minster together now
about grace and forgiveness.

My Pastor in California gave the link. There were other stories we were told, they were
also powerful, as God protected and supplied their needs.

http://preparethewayministry.com/content/protais-rwandan-genocide-survivor%E2%80%99s-story

Proverbs 24: 17-18
Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth: Lest the Lord see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.

Originally posted by sonship
... Let me check that with what God says in His word....

Man wrote the bible. The hubris of all three abrahamic religions and their hundreds of sects! It is MY interpretation of the selected portions culled from the scrolls that count!

Originally posted by Rajk999

You grandstand here demanding a straight answer. Funny though, many times you don't accept a straight answer. You argue against a straight answer.

Questions to any of these supporters:
1. Who will experience weeping and gnashing of teeth, according to Jesus Christ?

Strictly speaking, your first "question" ends right here.

Whoever Jesus Christ deems should be weeping or gnashing teeth will be weeping and gnashing teeth.

Of course at His second coming that will include those lost forever.
If may include some who "suffer loss" losing the reward of co-reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom. Yet they are saved in eternal redemption.

" If anyone work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15)

That could include some very strong regret and weeping too. I see no biblical reason to insist the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" must only apply to eternal punishment.

[And dont sugar coat it, state the whole story. You will find that what Jesus said regarding this is that it is those who are sinful, evil, workers of iniquity, Jesus said nothing of those believing in him escaping.]

It is interesting that you usually speak of sinful, evil, and iniquity. While this should is important, there is also a warning against spiritual DEADNESS. In fact the church in Sardis has a warning about the defilement of spiritual DEADNESS in Christians.

" And to the messenger of the church in Sardis write: These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars;
I know your works, that you have a name that you are living, and yet you are dead. Become watchful and establish the things which remain, which were about to die; for I have found none of your works completed before My God." (Rev. 3:1b-2)

This is a warning against the incompleteness of allowing the Lord's divine life to saturate and fill up the personality leaving one's works spiritually lifeless. Though a reputation being living is there the actual life vitality is not.

" But you have a few names in Sardis who have not defiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white because they are worthy." (v.4)

We appreciate your emphasis on sins, iniquity, and lawlessness. But don't neglect the "defilement" of spiritual deadness. Here Christ admonishes the Christians to be spiritually vital by the Spirit (the seven Spirits of God) in all their living and service. To be approved for reward and to walk with Him in white has to do with not being spiritually dead, in spite of a famous reputation towards the world.

" ... I know your works, that you have a name that you are living, and yet you are dead." (v.1c)

The Lord Jesus hates death probably more than He hates sin. And the overcoming the deadness here is related to not having one's name erased from "the book of life"

"He who overcomes will be clothed thus, in white garments, and I shall by no means erase his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (vs.5,6)

2. What did you do to warn people how to escape this coming torment [which you claim you did], apart from say or imply that they should be a Christian [something Jesus never said]?

This is a question with a statement inserted. If answering the question implies going along with your statement about what Jesus never said, I choose to ignore the "question".

3. Where have you told anyone on this forum that it is essential that in order to escape this doom, one must keep away from sin and evil, as Jesus himself stated? Please point to the thread.

I usually first lay a firm foundation for justification by faith. Then upon that foundation I go on to teach them about the kingdom life.

First Corinthians says Paul planted and Apollos watered and God gave the growth.
Planting and Watering are needed for the Growth. It is not that ONLY watering is needed. It is not that ONLY planting is needed.

Initial and introductory work is needed and follow on work is needed for raising up disciples as "plants" for Christ on God's farm.

"For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land [or farm] God's building." (1 Cor. 3:9)

Originally posted by KellyJay

Thankyou for sharing this.

I heard Elizabeth Elliot (wife of missionary Jim Elliot) spoke of how she forgave and befriended the man who murdered her husband in South America. It may be written in Through Gates of Splendour about their gospel work among the Auca native South Americans.

Wiki -

Elisabeth Elliot (née Howard; December 21, 1926 – June 15, 2015) was a Christian author and speaker. Her first husband, Jim Elliot, was killed in 1956 while attempting to make missionary contact with the Auca (now known as Huaorani; also rendered as Waorani or Waodani) of eastern Ecuador. She later spent two years as a missionary to the tribe members who killed her husband. Returning to the United States after many years in South America, she became widely known as the author of over twenty books and as a speaker. Elliot toured the country, sharing her knowledge and experience, well into her seventies.[1]

Originally posted by sonship
You grandstand here demanding a straight answer. Funny though, many times you don't accept a straight answer. You argue against a straight answer.

Questions to any of these supporters:
1. Who will experience weeping and gnashing of teeth, according to Jesus Christ?

Strictly speaking, your first "question" ends right here.

Whoever ...[text shortened]... low workers; you are God's cultivated land [or farm] God's building." (1 Cor. 3:9) [/quote][/b]

You did not answer the questions asked because do do not know what a straight answer is. But, Im beginning to understand why you do that. Its not a problem. I know what you believe, I even know what you are trying to say. Its not your fault that you do not have the ability to answer a simple question with a direct clear answer. I do believe that you are trying your best, but there are some cases where your best is not satisfactory and this is one.

Here is an example of straight talk, in clear language:

The point of this thread is as follows: to find out what if anything has Christians done to warn nonChristians of the impending doom, or eternal torment, which they are likely to face. I ask this because some Christians believe in eternal torment, and they claim that they care about others and they warn them. I ask, how do you warn them and how do you encourage them to escape this torment?

Jesus warned people in this way; by saying that those who escape weeping and gnashing of teeth, are those who do not live a life of sin and evil, and who live righteously.

Are your warnings along the same lines of Jesus Christ, who you claim to follow?

Rajk999's first question was :

Questions to any of these supporters:
1. Who will experience weeping and gnashing of teeth, according to Jesus Christ?

Strictly speaking, your first "question" ends right here.

sonship's direct answer to 1rst question was:

Whoever Jesus Christ deems should be weeping or gnashing teeth will be weeping and gnashing teeth.

Of course at His second coming that will include those lost forever.
If may include some who "suffer loss" losing the reward of co-reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom. Yet they are saved in eternal redemption.

The follow on question was about essentially how do I preach the Gospel to people. IE. Do I each and every time warn them about fire of the lake of fire for evil doing?

Answer: No, not every time.

I defy anyone to prove to me that EVERY time Jesus teaches about the Gospel or the kingdom of God He teaches of damnation of eternal punishment.

There are some nine or more cases of Jesus speaking to people about His work and mission and salvation in the Gospel of John. Demonstrate that in each of these nine cases Jesus speaks of perishing in eternal punishment for evil doing.

Did He mention damnation to the woman at the well in chapter 4 ?
No mention of damnation to the weak man beside the pool in Bethseda in chapter 5.
No mention of escaping fire to the hungry crowd He fed and taught in chapter 6. However He does mention the blood of His redemption.
Not mention that I see in chapter 7 to the thirsty crowd.
Double check me.

No mention I see at first glance to the blind man in chapter 9.
Not much mention of fire in chapter 8. However stoning is certainly related to punishment.
In Chapter 10 He does speak of not perishing forever in connection with the sheep held in His and the Father's hand. But no mention that I can see involving the raising of Lazarus in chapter 11.

Double check me. Maybe I missed it.

Needless to say, in announcing the gospel and teaching of God's will sometimes Jesus mentioned saving from damnation and sometimes He did not. He may have spoken instead of thirst of sinners, hunger of sinners, blindness of sinners, spiritual or actual death of sinners.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Are your warnings along the same lines of Jesus Christ, who you claim to follow?

I try to be sensitive to what the Holy Spirit may want me to impress upon each person.
We Christians do not simply have a book of letters. We are to minister the Spirit Who is the living presence of Christ.

Am I right ?

" [God] Who has also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)

We should want to lead people to the Person of the living and available Jesus Who is the Holy Spirit. By this means at this time or by another means at another time.

You're just insisting that specified teachings in Matthew ALWAYS have to be in every presentation of the Gospel. That is rigid and legal. And if it were what God wanted then perhaps the New Testament could have ended at Matthew 13. It didn't.

Originally posted by sonship

Are your warnings along the same lines of Jesus Christ, who you claim to follow?

I try to be sensitive to what the Holy Spirit may want me to impress upon each person.
We Christians do not simply have a book of letters. We are to minister the Spirit Who is the living presence of Christ.

Am I right ?

[quote] [b] " [God] Who has also ...[text shortened]... hat God wanted then perhaps the New Testament could have ended at [b]Matthew 13. It didn't.[/b]

You failed to read and understand the question.