Evil people

Originally posted by obsesschess
Do the majority of people of the popular faiths really, truly believe that there is a supernatural hell awaiting those serious sinners in the afterlife (in this day and age)?

If you want a definition of 'evil', then maybe a suitable definition is - creating an eternal torment for sins committed within a relatively short, finite period of existence as
I question whether the concept of 'good' and 'evil' has any basis in reality anyway.

Aye!...it's all a bit silly really! ;]

Originally posted by Agerg
So you choose to go to Muslim hell then?

I choose to follow God through Jesus Christ, and take whatever comes my way
due to Jesus Christ.
Kelly

Originally posted by Agerg
Well then by your criterion for evilness I must be evil when the following exchange takes place:
"Hey Greg, how you doing?"
"Hi, not so bad thanks...and you?" (when infact I'm not ok but don't want to expand on the matter)

So how many people you know are not evil due to untruth, not being loving, or
do things that lead to death?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I choose to follow God through Jesus Christ, and take whatever comes my way
due to Jesus Christ.
Kelly

The quote of mine you responded to which was itself a response to Suzianne, was a challenge to her phraseology that we (atheists) all

*choose* to go to God_{suzianne} hell.

If this is a valid statement then it is just as valid to assert she and you choose to go to Muslim hell. If you answer "no" to the question "do you choose to go to Muslim Hell?" then it highlights a problem with the actual structure of her assertion independent of whichever god we're supposing.

You're presently just evading the point. That is unless you really do choose Muslim hell! (by which you'd answer the question above with a "yes".)

Originally posted by KellyJay
So how many people you know are not evil due to untruth, not being loving, or
do things that lead to death?
Kelly

There is no person who I "know" that qualifies for being evil by any reasonable non "God"-centred definition of the word - and they all lie.

Originally posted by Agerg
The quote of mine you responded to which was itself a response to Suzianne, was a challenge to her phraseology that we (atheists) all

*choose* to go to God_{suzianne} hell.

If this is a valid statement then it is just as valid to assert she and you choose to go to Muslim hell. If you answer "no" to the question "do you choose to go to Muslim Hel ...[text shortened]... do [b]choose Muslim hell! (by which you'd answer the question above with a "yes".)[/b]

I said I choose God through Jesus Christ and whatever comes from that, I'm more
than happy with. My choice in the eyes of several different belief systems can say
I'm going to their version of hell or nothing, I'm content being on their list to go
were ever they say as long as I'm faithful to Jesus Christ.
Kelly

Originally posted by Agerg
There is no person who I "know" that qualifies for being evil by any reasonable non "God"-centred definition of the word - and they all lie.

So evil is again in the eye of the beholder? If there is no God than no one has to
worry about being evil, since all standards are meaningless, and if there is a God
which I believe to be true, His definition of evil will apply? I can than say His
judgment for being evil will be His too, not ours.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I said I choose God through Jesus Christ and whatever comes from that, I'm more
than happy with. My choice in the eyes of several different belief systems can say
I'm going to their version of hell or nothing, I'm content being on their list to go
were ever they say as long as I'm faithful to Jesus Christ.
Kelly

Let me put it another way since I'm not getting my point across; and I'll leave it here.

May I assume you did not think to yourself:
I want to go to Muslim hell, therefore I'll subscribe to Christianity
?

This has the same structure as Suzianne's assertion we atheists choose Christian hell in that

we want to go to Christian hell so we choose to not believe in God_{Suzianne}

Originally posted by KellyJay
So evil is again in the eye of the beholder? If there is no God than no one has to
worry about being evil, since all standards are meaningless, and if there is a God
which I believe to be true, His definition of evil will apply? I can than say His
judgment for being evil will be His too, not ours.
Kelly

Well your God_{KellyJay}-centred definition of evil has no currency with those who don't believe in any gods (or a different god incompatible with yours). As a collective of civilised humans we can all agree that sticking a fork in some baby's left eye causing great pain, damage, and anguish upon this poor infant is an evil act, we just don't require it be an evil act with respect to your god. The action of lying on the otherhand isn't by myself or perhaps others, seen as an intrinsically evil thing to do.

It would be like vishvahetu defining all people who follow his beliefs to be intelligent and then saying if his god doesn't exist then neither does intelligence!
Just because he redefines some word that has a colloquial definition we all agree on doesn't mean we should then accept his definition should he later conflate this notion of "intelligence" with what we mean by the word.

Similarly you're redefining evil and then abusing it in the same way.

Originally posted by Agerg
Let me put it another way since I'm not getting my point across; and I'll leave it here.

May I assume you did not think to yourself:
I want to go to Muslim hell, therefore I'll subscribe to Christianity
?

This has the same structure as Suzianne's assertion we atheists choose Christian hell in that

we want to go to Christian hell so we choose to not believe in God_{Suzianne}

No, I got that point quite clearly, and I agreed if the Muslim hell is waiting for me
I accept that, because I choose Jesus Christ and I'll not deny Him. When I accept
Jesus Christ as Lord I shun all other paths to God including striving to become
good enough myself through my own efforts. I do indeed acknowledge what I ask
for comes at a cost to me, and I'm fine with that, just as your choices come at
a cost to you, and I suppose you are okay with that too. If you and I end up in a
hell we could have avoided here and now if we could, so be it. I know I'm making
my bed just as you are and we are both doing it with our eyes wide open.
Kelly

Originally posted by Agerg
Well your God_{KellyJay}-centred definition of evil has no currency with those who don't believe in any gods (or a different god incompatible with yours). As a collective of civilised humans we can all agree that sticking a fork in some baby's left eye causing great pain, damage, and anguish upon this poor infant is an evil act, we just don't require it be an ...[text shortened]... n by the word.

Similarly you're redefining evil and then abusing it in the same way.

Listen I asked how evil was defined and I got this worthless standard of it is if
someone does something bad to another above the ordinary or some verbage like
that. That is evil in the eye of the beholder, so even by that lame standard the God
who says when we do bad things to one of His, it is like doing it to Him so He will
judge who harms His own. God's standards if you like them or not, or if you accept
them or no, they change not, they are what they are; in addition to that, God says
as we judge we will be judged, so the very standards you apply to others will be
used on you. All of the bases will be covered, as you cannot jump to the moon due
to the forces God set in place you will not be able to avoid His standards of right
and wrong, and you'll have no excuse when you go against your own.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Listen I asked how evil was defined and I got this worthless standard of it is if
someone does something bad to another above the ordinary or some verbage like
that. That is evil in the eye of the beholder, so even by that lame standard the God
who says when we do bad things to one of His, it is like doing it to Him so He will
judge who harms His own. G standards of right
and wrong, and you'll have no excuse when you go against your own.
Kelly

Well you are just as guilty since your definition of "evil" is just as nebulous as ours [1]
As per the toy example I gave before, If someone asks me if I'm ok then I must either be rude and fail to answer them, project upon myself an image of misery as I answer with a sharp "no", or bore them with a sufficiently detailed account of my troubles that lead me to being not ok - failure to do this, in your eyes would be the mark of an evil person since I would have to tell at least one lie; and I assume this is not what you had in mind with your notion of evil.

Indeed playing the same game as you, one could say you yourself are an evil person because the definition of evil as it is defined with respect to Allah includes the act of worshipping a different god.





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1) As a collective we do have differing notions of what being evil entails, though there is usually an unwritten contract between humans that some collection of actions are unambiguously evil things to do; and we'll often state this is the case when those actions have been performed.

Originally posted by Agerg
Well you are just as guilty since your definition of "evil" is just as nebulous as ours (as a collective we do have differing notions of what being evil entails, though there is usually an unwritten contract between humans that some collection of actions are unambiguously evil things to do, and stating this is the case when those actions have been performed). ...[text shortened]... vil as it is defined with respect to Allah includes the act of worshipping a different god.

I know, I'm a sinner in need of a Savior to save me from my sins.
I don't see one wit of difference between me and any other person, my only hope
rest in Jesus Christ and Him alone. I say this not to excuse my sins and live as
a sinner deep in sin because God forgives, but one who knows he is guilty and
has turned his life over to God to follow Him as He leads.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I know, I'm a sinner in need of a Savior to save me from my sins.
I don't see one wit of difference between me and any other person, my only hope
rest in Jesus Christ and Him alone. I say this not to excuse my sins and live as
a sinner deep in sin because God forgives, but one who knows he is guilty and
has turned his life over to God to follow Him as He leads.
Kelly

I cannot assign any tangible weight to the word "sin" as it is a purely "God" centred word which has no clearly defined meaning for me [1]. Telling a white lie is as much a sin it seems as commiting genocide.
Indeed, any claim that I am a sinner has as much meaning to me as the claim I'm a biffybollerzaggiwasher. [2]

I'm also having difficulty seeing what part of my last post this response of yours is answering.






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1) other than it being some collection of things which either God_{KellyJay}, God_{josephw}, God_{Suzianne}, ..., God_{Robbie Carrobie}, God_{John Smith}, etc... doesn't like

2) Where biffybollerzaggiwashing is doing something another god "Hakaj" doesn't like.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I know, I'm a sinner in need of a Savior to save me from my sins.
I don't see one wit of difference between me and any other person, my only hope
rest in Jesus Christ and Him alone. I say this not to excuse my sins and live as
a sinner deep in sin because God forgives, but one who knows he is guilty and
has turned his life over to God to follow Him as He leads.
Kelly

Do you feel you were born as a sinner or did you become a sinner?
And does that mean you see yourself as an evil person?