19 Sep 14
Originally posted by galveston75I think this generates a contradiction. To sin is to be less than perfect. If Adam and Eve were created to be perfect then they wouldn't have eaten the apple as perfect entities cannot sin. Introducing the serpent really doesn't cut it as as perfect entities Adam and Eve should not be listening. What is more one has to ask why the serpent or anything else in creation is imperfect and capable of sin.
We have inherited sin and imperfection from Adam and as a result we all have bad eyes among other things.
God made man perferct but Adam lost that for us. But God promisses that some day soon we will gain that back....
I think Adam and Eve are meant to be created innocent rather perfect.
20 Sep 14
Originally posted by DeepThoughtPerfect implies innocent.
I think this generates a contradiction. To sin is to be less than perfect. If Adam and Eve were created to be perfect then they wouldn't have eaten the apple as perfect entities cannot sin. Introducing the serpent really doesn't cut it as as perfect entities Adam and Eve should not be listening. What is more one has to ask why the serpent or anything ...[text shortened]... ect and capable of sin.
I think Adam and Eve are meant to be created innocent rather perfect.
And "perfect entities cannot sin"? Who says? Being innocent, they were beguiled by the serpent. At least Eve was. And Adam was beguiled by her. Even though they were perfect. This is why he holds the responsibility of the Fall.
20 Sep 14
Originally posted by SuzianneYes, but innocent does not imply perfect.
Perfect implies innocent.
And "perfect entities cannot sin"? Who says? Being innocent, they were beguiled by the serpent. At least Eve was. And Adam was beguiled by her. Even though they were perfect. This is why he holds the responsibility of the Fall.
In reply to "who says?" Plato for one. If sin is the action of an imperfect being then perfect beings cannot do it.
20 Sep 14
2 edits
Originally posted by DeepThoughtThere are many analogies I could use, but if you are going to insist that everything already have unseen defects, then there is no point in using the word perfect for anything. You apparently have replaced God in your mind as the one who knows it all.
How? Any crystal has microscopic defects which make it imperfect. Nice metaphor, but it doesn't really deal with the point.
According to you, Jesus was not made perfect, but only innocent and if he did not sin, He would just have remained an innocent defective man.
20 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI'm having trouble following this argument. Hypothetically, if it was possible to construct a perfect glass vase, meaning it was a vase with absolutely no flaws whatsoever, would you still argue it is not a perfect vase because it can be broken?
How? Any crystal has microscopic defects which make it imperfect. Nice metaphor, but it doesn't really deal with the point.
Unless I'm mistaken I don't believe the elimination of microscopic defects could cause that vase to become shatter proof. But you didn't actually define what you meant by perfect, so does your definition of 'perfect' include invulnerability?
I'm not trying to be a wise guy, I'm sincerely puzzled by your reasoning... if I am missing some important link here, then what am I missing?
Edit: I also don't see how an idea of perfect innocence comes anywhere close to implying invulnerability, so I'm still unclear about what you mean by 'perfect'.
20 Sep 14
Originally posted by lemon limeGood point - but we are down to semantics again.
I'm having trouble following this argument. Hypothetically, if it was possible to construct a perfect glass vase, meaning it was a vase with absolutely no flaws whatsoever, would you still argue it is not a perfect vase because it can be broken?
Unless I'm mistaken I don't believe the elimination of microscopic defects could cause that va ...[text shortened]... ywhere close to implying invulnerability, so I'm still unclear about what you mean by 'perfect'.
"Perfect" is obviously an ill-defined word.
Was Jesus perfect? He wasn't nail-proof and couldn't fly.
20 Sep 14
2 edits
Originally posted by DeepThoughtPlato obviously had too much time on his hands. But he wasn't stupid, because someone must have been so impressed with his words of wisdom they were willing to support him with food and shelter and other perks (free wine?) allowing him time to formulate many more words of wisdom.
Yes, but innocent does not imply perfect.
In reply to "who says?" Plato for one. If sin is the action of an imperfect being then perfect beings cannot do it.
However, according to the philosopher Lemon Lime Descartes, sin can be both the action of an imperfect being and the cause of perfect beings becoming imperfect.
There now, see just how easy it was for me to pontificate, and make an important sounding statement worthy of tossing money and fame and women my way? But hey, would you like to get in on a little known secret?
Anyone can do it!
And for a limited time I'll be offering my three week course in Pontificating Made Easy at less than half cost, but this offer is only being made available to members of RHP who are blonde and female and cute... no exceptions.
edit: My avatar is putting words in my mouth... I have no control over my avatar... it's not my fault!
20 Sep 14
Originally posted by lemon limeDarn it!
Plato obviously had too much time on his hands. But he wasn't stupid, because someone must have been so impressed with his words of wisdom they were willing to support him with food and shelter and other perks (free wine?) allowing him time to formulate many more words of wisdom.
However, according to the philosopher Lemon Lime Decarte, sin can be [i]b ...[text shortened]... only being made available to members of RHP who are blonde and female and cute... no exceptions.
Kelly
20 Sep 14
2 edits
Originally posted by lemon limeI am related to a couple of blondes, can that count?
Well, I don't know... are you blonde?
I suppose I could make an exception. I mean after all, I make up all of the rules for my course.
Kelly
and I'm in great shape, because you know, round is a shape! 🙂