Originally posted by rwingettThe bottom line is that the hearts of men are corrupt, does it matter
Greed and corruption will afflict both secular and religious programs in equal measure. But secular programs do not start off with weight of medieval religious dogma* wrapped around their ankles. So religious programs start "in the hole", as it were, and have to work doubly hard to bring about the same net amount of good as their secular counterparts. There ...[text shortened]... original sin, for example, which I think is one of the most pernicious concepts ever devised.
that one has some certain dogma and the other has other types? You
are saying that you dislike the original sin doctrine, yet you admit men
are corrupt, seems like it doesn't matter if you accept original sin if
corruption is everywhere it got there some how. Original sin doctrine
says that there can be life without corruption since the fall of man was
from a place where man wasn’t corrupt. If I were to suggest that
evolution for example has its own dogma with man evolving from the
animals; that pushes a doctrine that man is just in a struggle to
survive and control and only the strong move on. That belief is also
dogma that drives actions and justifies them as well. If that belief
that we came from the animals who came from something else, who
came from something else were true, that means that there wasn’t
ever a time where we can say there was no corruption with man. That
belief system is a little darker to me than the one that suggests we
can and should rise above the corruption of the world, because it
doesn’t have to be that way.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI do not believe that mankind is corrupt. Unlike the church, I believe that mankind is inherently good, but that certain individuals may become corrupted. I do not believe that man inherited sin from Adam. To stick with the biblical story - I believe that every man bites from the apple, or not, within his own lifetime and on his own terms. For the psychological health of the general population, that seems far preferable than to say everyone is a worthless sinner from birth, thanks to something someone else did thousands of years before you were even born.
The bottom line is that the hearts of men are corrupt, does it matter
that one has some certain dogma and the other has other types? You
are saying that you dislike the original sin doctrine, yet you admit men
are corrupt, seems like it doesn't matter if you accept original sin if
corruption is everywhere it got there some how. Original sin doctrine
sa ...[text shortened]... should rise above the corruption of the world, because it
doesn’t have to be that way.
Kelly
But I have no interest in discussing the merits of original sin within this particular thread. For my purposes here, when I say that it is a strike against religious institutions, I am stating it axiomatically.
Originally posted by rwingettOK, I understand what you are saying, however I don't think people really consider the concept of original sin when giving to a religious affiliated program. At least I don't. I feel the same "medieval religious dogma" around my ankles when the fraternal order of police call my house requesting a donation to help the families of slain officers as I do when a church may call me.
Greed and corruption will afflict both secular and religious programs in equal measure. But secular programs do not start off with the weight of medieval religious dogma* wrapped around their ankles. So religious programs start "in the hole", as it were, and have to work doubly hard to bring about the same net amount of good as their secular counterparts. T ...[text shortened]... original sin, for example, which I think is one of the most pernicious concepts ever devised.
Originally posted by rwingettThe doctrine of original sin does not say that everyone is born
I do not believe that mankind is corrupt. Unlike the church, I believe that mankind is inherently good, but that certain individuals may become corrupted. I do not believe that man inherited sin from Adam. To stick with the biblical story - I believe that every man bites from the apple, or not, within his own lifetime and on his own terms. For the psycholog ...[text shortened]... e, when I say that it is a strike against religious institutions, I am stating it axiomatically.
worthless! It simply addresses the concept of the fall of man and how
sin entered into the human condition, which has nothing at all to do
with worth, but corruption. The 'worth' of man when it comes to God is
a great deal when you look at the cost and how far God was willing to
go to salvage and save that which was lost due to sin. Where and
when this corruption entered into the picture is what that scripture
talks about, the power to act and do what one wills does not mean
that one must behave badly. I’m not, nor does the doctrine of original
sin deny that man is inherently good; the doctrine of original sin
actually promotes that belief too, since being good was the original
state of man in the beginning. Basically what we find with man now is
when he is given some power if he is ‘good’ he does what should,
while if there is corruption within him that is revealed in how he
behaves. Original sin does say that in our current state all of us share
some levels of corruption, which again does not speak to worth only
our state of righteousness.
Kelly
Originally posted by kirksey957Proselytization frequently goes hand in hand with religious charities. It is not simple altruism, but apparent altruism being used as a means for spreading the word. If a charity's religious affiliation was purely incidental, and never came up in any other context, then I might agree that they'd be just as useful as secular ones. But that is seldom the case. As long as the secondary role (or primary role) of religious charities is to make converts, and as long as their dogma contains beliefs as nefarious as original sin, then measure for measure secular charities will do more net good.
OK, I understand what you are saying, however I don't think people really consider the concept of original sin when giving to a religious affiliated program. At least I don't. I feel the same "medieval religious dogma" around my ankles when the fraternal order of police call my house requesting a donation to help the families of slain officers as I do when a church may call me.
Originally posted by KellyJayI have no interest in discussing the merits of original sin within this particular thread. For my purposes here, when I say that it is a strike against religious institutions, I am stating it axiomatically.
The doctrine of original sin does not say that everyone is born
worthless! It simply addresses the concept of the fall of man and how
sin entered into the human condition, which has nothing at all to do
with worth, but corruption. The 'worth' of man when it comes to God is
a great deal when you look at the cost and how far God was willing to
go to salv ...[text shortened]... ls of corruption, which again does not speak to worth only
our state of righteousness.
Kelly
Originally posted by rwingettYes, you can be morally upright and you can still choose to reject Christ.
I do not believe that mankind is corrupt. Unlike the church, I believe that mankind is inherently good, but that certain individuals may become corrupted. I do not believe that man inherited sin from Adam. To stick with the biblical story - I believe that every man bites from the apple, or not, within his own lifetime and on his own terms. For the psycholog ...[text shortened]... e, when I say that it is a strike against religious institutions, I am stating it axiomatically.
Originally posted by rwingettWhy would the Amish actions be an example reserved just for other Christians ? Couldn't the atheists and other religious people learn something from it also ? ... and in doing so, please don't forget the last words of the Bible verse you gave: " ..... and from now on do not sin again." Because without these words the whole verse loses much, if not all, of its meaning.
The temptation to give a flippant answer here is very strong. But even as an atheist, I do have a favorite passage from the bible. The story of the Adultress, from the Gospel of John. The problem is that biblical research has indicated that it may not have originally been in John, and is probably a later addition. But putting that question aside momentarily from the simple Amish and preach a little less fire and brimstone and a little more compassion.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=1477
King James Version:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P3.HTM
New American Bible:
1 In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,
2 the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters.
3 Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=1&version=15
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Genesis 1
1In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --
2the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
3and God saith, `Let light be;' and light is.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4760421
John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Originally posted by rwingettDo you also reason in such a way when it comes to science as a force for good and whether or not the "scale is balanced" ?
Of course religion can be a force for good. It would be folly to argue otherwise. But it is also a force for far less noble pursuits. The question is whether the scale is balanced enough toward the good side to make the enterprise worthwhile, or whether what good it does can be accomplished by means that do not bring along all of religion's inherent the good deeds by secular means that do not involve all the antiquated theological baggage.
Originally posted by KellyJayI think you nailed it on the head. Religion as well as anything else for that matter, can be used for good/evil depending on the condition of ones heart. Therefore, it is not the institution of religion or of a secular body that should be examined as being "good" or "evil" rather, the hearts of men within those institutions should be what is examined. This brings to mind Jeremiah 17:9.
[b]The bottom line is that the hearts of men are corrupt,
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperatly wicked; who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."
The condition of ones heart can change, however, as seen in Ezekiel 18:30
"Therefore, I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions, so iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby you have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; for why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies, says the Lord God; wherefore turn yourselves and live!"
It is also interesting to note that faith is required by God because it is the only thing counted as righteousness for man as mentioned in Romans 4:3. Then in Luke chapter 8 the sower and the seed parable talks about how faith is produced and/or frustrated. It appears verse 15 is saying that a good heart is needed for faith to be produced. It is therefore understandable why God roams the earth looking at the hearts of men. The condition of ones heart is the key to being able to exihibit faith and this faith is needed to exihibit righteousness, ie eternal life, which is also the key to exihibiting "good" in their life on earth.
"But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."
This fruit that is produced can be seen in Galations 5:22
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance; against such there is no law. And they that are Christs have crucified teh flesh with the affections and lusts."
The opposite of this is walking in the "flesh" seen in Galations 5:19
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, adultery, fornication, uncleaness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkeness, revelings, and such like; of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Therefore, it is my conclusion that to have this "good" heart one must first repent of his transgressions. This repentance is a turning from a particular way of life that is destructive. It stands to reason that if one stops transgressing then one will naturally become a force for "good" verses a force for "evil" no matter if one finds himself in a secular setting or a religious setting. Likewise, if one continues in "sin" then one will tend to become a force for "evil" verses a force for "good" no matter if that individual is in a secular setting or a religious setting. This is not to say, however, that some good cannot come from those stuck in a life of transgression or some bad cannot come from a person with a "good" heart, rather, the consistency of their respective lifestyles is what determines the consistency of good or evil being produced in their respective lives and ultimatly will determine their eternal destination.
Deuteronomy chapter 8
"All the commandments I enjoin on you today you must keep and observe so that you may live and increase in numbers and enter into the land that God promised on an oath to your fathers, and make it your own. Remember how the Lord your God had led you for forty years in the wilderness, to humble you, to test you and know your inmost heart--whehter you would keep his commandments or not. He humbled you, he made you feel hunger, he fed you with manna which niether you nor your fathers had known, to make you understand that man does not live by bread alone but that man lives on everything that comes from the mouth of God. The clothes on your back did not wear out and your feet were not swollen, all those forty years. Learn from this that the Lord your God was training you as a man trains a child, and keep the commandments of the Lord your God, and so follow his ways and reverence him.
2 Chronicles 30:18 But Hezekiah interceeded for them saying, "May the Lord in his goodness cover up the fault of anyone who sets his heart on seeking God, the Lord God of our ancestors, even if he lacks the purity requisite for holy things." The Lord heard Hezekiah and left the people unharmed.
1 Chronicles 28:9 "And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father, serve him with an undivided heart and a willing mind; for God searches every heart, and knows every plan it devises. If you seek him, he will let your find him."
Ezra 8:22 ...."The hand of our God is held out in blessing over all who seek him, his power and his anger over all who turn away from him."
Psalms 9:9 May the Lord be a stronghold for the oppressed, a stonghold when times are hard. Those who acknowledge your name can rely on you, you never desert those who seek you.
Psalms 30:5 God's anger blasts a moment, his favor a lifetime.
Proverbs 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction; for whom the Lord loves he corrects; even as a father the son in whom he delights.
Proverbs 12:1 He who loves discpline, loves knowledge, stupid is the man who hates correction.
Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom. For days are multiplied by me and years of life increased.
Proverbs 8:13 To fear the Lord is to hate evil.