Fishers of Men

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Most religions (especially the "institutionalised" ones) believe in the existence of objective truth. Clearly, if you believe X is true, you cannot but say not-X is false. And, if you believe that a particular institution/religion is true, then it's just juvenile for you to oppose it solely on the basis of some pretend-freedom of "doing things ...[text shortened]... of us have freely joined the institution because that is where we think truth is.

You've completely missed the point. I believe all religion is false. What I believe is correct, is that people be free to follow their beliefs, even if they are opposed to mine. There is a vast difference in my opinion on religion the body and the individual religious beliefs of the person.

Tell me, when you joined the RC, did you already know the entirity of its dogma? Did you really make a reasoned decision that it was the church for you?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Most religions (especially the "institutionalised" ones) believe in the existence of objective truth. Clearly, if you believe X is true, you cannot but say not-X is false. And, if you believe that a particular institution/religion is true, then it's just juvenile for you to oppose it solely on the basis of some pretend-freedom of "doing things ...[text shortened]... of us have freely joined the institution because that is where we think truth is.

You should be thanking him. According to your beliefs, Liam may have just inadvertently saved him from Eternal damnation. How many practising Muslims do you believe will be in the Catholic heaven when all is said and done?

Originally posted by Starrman
You've completely missed the point. I believe all religion is false. What I believe is correct, is that people be free to follow their beliefs, even if they are opposed to mine. There is a vast difference in my opinion on religion the body and the individual religious beliefs of the person.

Tell me, when you joined the RC, did you already know the entirity of its dogma? Did you really make a reasoned decision that it was the church for you?

I don't need to know the entirety of Catholic dogma to judge whether it is the true Church or not - just enough to judge that particular matter. You don't need to read the entire judgement-summary of a particular judge to decide if he's a Supreme Court judge or not.

To answer your questions - when I first joined the RCC, no - I wasn't old enough to make a reasoned judgment. When I rejoined the RCC, yes - it was a reasoned decision.

Satisfied?

Originally posted by darvlay
You should be thanking him. According to your beliefs, Liam may have just inadvertently saved him from Eternal damnation. How many practising Muslims do you believe will be in the Catholic heaven when all is said and done?

You do know that the Catholic Church does not teach that all non-Catholics go to hell, don't you?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
You do know that the Catholic Church does [b]not teach that all non-Catholics go to hell, don't you?[/b]

Of course. That doesn't make the question any less relevant.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
You do know that the Catholic Church does [b]not teach that all non-Catholics go to hell, don't you?[/b]

They teach that only catholics go to heaven, though.

Originally posted by darvlay
Of course. That doesn't make the question any less relevant.

Just checking.

But, to answer your question, I don't know how many practising Muslims will be in heaven. For the moment, only God knows that. But, if I were to hazard a guess, I would say that a great number of practising Muslims would end up in heaven because, ultimately, they worship the same God Christians do - even if they see a lot of things differently.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I don't need to know the entirety of Catholic dogma to judge whether it is the true Church or not - just enough to judge that particular matter. You don't need to read the entire judgement-summary of a particular judge to decide if he's a Supreme Court judge or not.

To answer your questions - when I first joined the RCC, no - I wasn't old en ...[text shortened]... ed judgment. When I rejoined the RCC, yes - it was a reasoned decision.

Satisfied?

Yes, not that I needed to be, I was merely curious. I have no problem with people making informed decisions to join institutions if they believe those institutions to uphold their beliefs. I do have a doubt as to whether or not the majority of people or a religious nature are thus informed though.

Originally posted by Redmike
They teach that only catholics go to heaven, though.

No - they don't.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Just checking.

But, to answer your question, I don't know how many practising Muslims will be in heaven. For the moment, only God knows that. But, if I were to hazard a guess, I would say that a great number of practising Muslims would end up in heaven because, ultimately, they worship the same God Christians do - even if they see a lot of things differently.

Do you think the Muslims will get their own Gaza-Strip-like portion of Heaven, only with less bulldozers and more virgins?

Originally posted by darvlay
Do you think the Muslims will get their own Gaza-Strip-like portion of Heaven, only with less bulldozers and more virgins?

No.

Any more silly questions?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
No.

Any more silly questions?

Are you always so serious?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
No - they don't.

OK - I remember being taught this when I was at an RC school, but I may have misunderstood.

A priest told us that we should carry out 'emergency baptisms' on any non-catholics we could, as we would be saving their souls.

Originally posted by Redmike
OK - I remember being taught this when I was at an RC school, but I may have misunderstood.

A priest told us that we should carry out 'emergency baptisms' on any non-catholics we could, as we would be saving their souls.

He was partially correct.

In Catholic doctrine, the sacraments are the only means known to man for salvation, which is why Christians have a duty to evangelise. However, the Church also teaches that God Himself is not bound by the sacraments and can save someone who was never baptised if He chooses.

In any case, I think emergency baptisms are only valid if the person being baptised is below the age of reason or a willing adult. I don't think a baptism is valid if it's done against the will of the person - but I'm not sure about this.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
He was partially correct.

In Catholic doctrine, the sacraments are the only means known to man for salvation, which is why Christians have a duty to evangelise. However, the Church also teaches that God Himself is not bound by the sacraments and can save someone who was never baptised if He chooses.

In any case, I think emergency baptisms ...[text shortened]... a baptism is valid if it's done against the will of the person - but I'm not sure about this.

To be fair, the priest in question may have said any non-Catholic babies.

It didn't stop me from repeatedly baptising (usually with guiness) a classmate at university who was particulary anti-catholic.


So, hypothetically speaking, have I a better chance of making it to heaven since I've received the various sacraments? Even though I'm now an atheist? Or do we just not know how god is going to play it for folks like me?