22 Oct 05
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Originally posted by dj2beckerDo you think that the billions that have accepted Christ throughout the ages have done so with insufficient evidence to warrant their belief?
See, I know exactly what you are trying to do here. Your goal is to make a case that if "billions" of people all came to warranted belief in Christ, then (in at least those and similar cases) there must exist sufficient evidence for the adoption of such belief. I would say that is true since I don't really see how warranted belief can spring from insufficient evidence; BUT you are assuming that such belief is warranted to begin with -- so you are really just begging the following question: What reasons are there to think such belief is warranted to begin with? To be brutally honest, dj2, I see no reason to think that your belief in God is warranted. So maybe you can help me out here by filling in the blanks. Why do you think your belief in God is warranted or justified?
It is sin that separates man from God. If man dies in his sin he will be eternally separated from God. This is 'eternal torment'.
LOL. If hell is simply a "separation" from your megalomaniacal God, then where do I sign up for a reserved spot in hell? How would this separation be "eternal torment?" The concept of eternal torment implies much pain and suffering; but a separation from the warped God you worship sounds refreshing and idyllic.
You cannot divorce God's justice from his love. I would say that they are a paradox in duality. I never said that God is the one that tortures poeple. I believe it is God's absense which will form the greatest part of the 'torture'.
Yes; and I am pretty sure that a wild pack of those damn Free Wills have been bounding out of the forest and eating all the vegetables from my gardens and turning over my garbage cans in the middle of the night. Honestly, you will go to any length to suggest that your God is not responsible for crappy stuff. The absence of God does the torturing...yes, and the notable absence of pirates on the open seas has also been demonstrated to be the primary source of global warming.
What you fail to recognize is that if in fact your God is omnipotent and omniscient as you claim, then He is responsible for everything. This seeming "paradox" of which you speak is simply due to the fact that your ideas and assertions directly contradict one another: you claim simultaneously that your God is morally perfect but that he nevertheless attempts to exact obedience through methods which are clearly barbaric and unjust. Most people would be vexed by such contradictions within their own lines of thought, but you choose to ignore the problem and chalk it up to a paradoxical position that, notwithstanding the contradictions, works in a funny, vague, inexplicable sort of way. Such is your faith, which seems very strong.
22 Oct 05
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Originally posted by dj2beckerPlease try to follow along. It is not a matter of "passing the buck." It is a matter of voicing opposition to the type of despotic might-makes-right rule that you claim constitutes God's "justice." That He possesses the power to punish and torture one for all eternity is probably good reason to be in awe of Him; however, that He actually has the frame of mind to premeditate and carry out such methods is good reason to oppose Him and His views on moral responsibility and desert. If you cannot see that, then I think you would do well to shed some of the faith that has handicapped your judgement.
It is human nature to justify yourself and to pass the buck.
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22 Oct 05
3 edits
LJ, before I answer you I would just like to know if you have read the book that I suggested to you a few months back? It answers most of these issues which we have become stuck on almost every time. You said that you would read it and come back to me with your thoughts on it. If you have not read it, I have the feeling that you are wasting my time.
Here is another series by Ralph Muncaster, which I highly recommend:
http://www.evidenceofgod.com/
22 Oct 05
2 edits
Originally posted by dj2beckerInteresting you should ask. Long story short, the libraries on campus had other books written by Kennedy but not the one you recommended. So I ordered a paperback copy online, and I received email confirmation just today that it has been shipped. I assure you that I intend to give you my full analysis of his arguments once it arrives. Hopefully that will calm your fears that my sole purpose in life is to waste your time. In the meantime, I still feel compelled to reply to some of the rigamarole you have posted.
LJ, before I answer you I would just like to know if you have read the book that I suggested to you a few months back? It answers most of these issues which we have become stuck on almost every time. You said that you would read it and come back to me with your thoughts on it. If you have not read it, I have the feeling that you are wasting my time.
Here is another series by Ralph Muncaster, which I highly recommend:
http://www.evidenceofgod.com/
Now: have you read the book I suggested, or is your particular academic setting still sheltering you from all forms of critical thought? If the book is still unavailable to you, there are many other books/essays I could recommend.
Thanks for the Muncaster link -- I'll give it a look-see.
22 Oct 05
1 edit
Do you think that the billions that have accepted Christ throughout the ages have done so with insufficient evidence to warrant their belief?
Common form of counting bias used by the pop-star apologists. When they want a big number who accept Christ, they include everybody (Catholics, Seventh Day, Quakers, Baptists, on and on). That's how you get 'billions.' On the otherhand, if you point out that that measure xianity includes terrorists, proud homosexuals, convicted felons in prison, the BTK murderer and the Atlanta Olympics bomber, and Mormons, suddenly you get a drastically lower estimate of the same figure.
I guess there's a difference between "accepting Christ" and being a "True Christian" TM.
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25 Oct 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloI'll give it a look-see. 🙂
Interesting you should ask. Long story short, the libraries on campus had other books written by Kennedy but not the one you recommended. So I ordered a paperback copy online, and I received email confirmation just today that it has been shipped. I assure you that I intend to give you my full analysis of his arguments once it arrives. Hopefully that w ...[text shortened]... er books/essays I could recommend.
Thanks for the Muncaster link -- I'll give it a look-see.