Originally posted by yoctobyteI'll just bring up the point I have tried to bring up before: So your god put out a forbidden fruit and Eve fell for it. So this god condemns the entire human race for the actions of one person.
Eve's actions (and adams) brought sin into the world and the wages of sin is death which is eternal separation from God. The eating of the forbidden fruit caused problems on many levels not just one, the most important of which is our relationship with God.
incidentally, I think planet overcrowding is a myth, have you ever been to Nevada?
Here is my problem with that truly stupid story:
So this omniscient god knows all, sees all, past, present, future.
It therefore would have known WAY ahead of time exactly what the outcome of that particular trap would have been before it ever set up the trap.
So why would this god need to set up a trap in the first place, which is something a human *not being omniscient, and therefore not being able to tell the future* would do perhaps to find out if Eve was naughty or nice.
This omniscient god, however, knew full in advance what happened before and after the trap so why would it set it up in the first place?
Did it just get tired of A&E crapping on the ground in its favorite garden?
They start smelling too bad because they didn't have soap and couldn't take baths?
Why would it go through all that, especially the part where the entire human race, all through the subsequent generations, be condemned for the actions of one woman who did something this god knew full well was going to happen in the first place?
Answer me THAT, theists.
Originally posted by stellspalfieA few corrections.
a+e's actions only brought sin into the world because of the arbitrary set of rules god put in place. if only he had used a different arbitrary system.
It was Adam's action--- not the woman's--- which brought sin into the world.
He was the ruler of the planet, so only he could abdicate.
You use the term "arbitrary" as though you think there was a better option to bring about what God is bringing about.
Please explain.
Originally posted by sonhouse
I'll just bring up the point I have tried to bring up before: So your god put out a forbidden fruit and Eve fell for it. So this god condemns the entire human race for the actions of one person.
Here is my problem with that truly stupid story:
So this omniscient god knows all, sees all, past, present, future.
It therefore would have known WAY ahea ...[text shortened]... hing this god knew full well was going to happen in the first place?
Answer me THAT, theists.
I'll just bring up the point I have tried to bring up before: So your god put out a forbidden fruit and Eve fell for it. So this god condemns the entire human race for the actions of one person.
First of all, the human race is not condemned, sin is! and it was not a punishment from God that befell A&E, they fell because of their own disobedience. A&E chose to eat what was commanded not to and suffered the consequences, it is that simple. This would be analogous to your instructing your children not to put there hand into a flame because the day they do, they will surely be burned. A&E were warned beforehand and chose to eat anyway, is that God's fault? Of course not.
Because of their sin (disobedience) we all suffer the consequences as a result of their actions; sickness, separation from God, etc. to name a couple.
As I read the account, A&E were not cursed, the serpent was cursed, the ground was cursed because of A&E.
Genesis 3:14-16
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 The Lord God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
16 To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”
Genesis 3:17-20
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
20 Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.
So why would this god need to set up a trap in the first place, which is something a human *not being omniscient, and therefore not being able to tell the future* would do perhaps to find out if Eve was naughty or nice.
It was not a trap at all! God needed to give man total free will even if there was the possibility that by exercising that free will could kill him. You see Sonhouse, this is an idea that is not really so far fetched as you might imagine.
You have kids right? You love your kids, and you want them to love you. If you put restraints on them, hold them under your thumb then their love for you may not be as pure as you might want, it may be because of your thumb. Only when we let them go to make decisions for themselves do we find out what the real deal is, the level of their love. God had to let man make his own decision totally and completely unrestrained. He was not being mean when he said do not eat the fruit of that tree, he was merely telling them the truth, kind of like my hand in the flame analogy.
God is love more than we could ever imagine and the totality of that love is exhibited through his son Jesus Christ. When we except Jesus Christ and what he done for us, we are exhibiting our love towards God. Does that make any sense?
Originally posted by stellspalfieIf you told your kids not to place their hands in a flame or they would get burned what would that be, an arbitrary set of rules? No, I would say love!
a+e's actions only brought sin into the world because of the arbitrary set of rules god put in place. if only he had used a different arbitrary system.
Originally posted by yoctobyteNo no, you cannot trust the bible, if you ask me. It's a ragu of different stories and legends. All bible is written by men with an agenda. So the Adam & Eve story is quite amusing, but not at all true.
So are you saying people have been around for 6,000 years? Yes i have been to Las Vegas, have you?
If you believe in this black book by the letter, then I understand why you don't follow my explanation why it is wrong. Read our conversation again and try to understand it.
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Originally posted by yoctobytei do not set the rules regarding the heat of a flame and its effects on human skin. god did set the rules regarding what would happen if a+e ate from the tree. god could of set up any rules regarding what would happen if they ate from the tree.
If you told your kids not to place their hands in a flame or they would get burned what would that be, an arbitrary set of rules? No, I would say love!
for example the rule could be - if you eat from the tree i will sit you down and teach you why it is wrong.
or the rule could be - if you eat from the tree you will turn into a pink elephant for 6 months.
its arbitrary, there is authority telling god what needs to happen, he's free to do and fix things in any way shape or form. he could of fixed sin by making humans completing rubiks cubes, saying the word 'anorak' 25 times, making a giant daisy chain.......anything.
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHIt was Adam's action--- not the woman's--- which brought sin into the world
A few corrections.
It was Adam's action--- not the woman's--- which brought sin into the world.
He was the ruler of the planet, so only he could abdicate.
You use the term "arbitrary" as though you think there was a better option to bring about what God is bringing about.
Please explain.
some of you blame one, some of you blame the other and some of you blame them both. its hard to write a post that caters for all christian beliefs.
it is actually god who created sin not adam. by defining the consequences and creating the punishments god made sin. if adam had eaten the fruit and god had not bothered setting up the consequences then it would not be sin to eat from the tree.
it is arbitrary because god created everything he had no laws he needed to follow. god could make humans learn their lesson and fix their nature by scratching it away off their bums, he could make it all be fixed by us all having lots of sex or playing football or hugging animals anything you can think of god could arrange. he has no rules he needs to follow, he can create any rules, making it all arbitrary.
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Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Here's a transliteration from the Westminster Leningrad Codex Hebrew text with vowels.
[Hebrew first, then the English, part in question emboldened in both]u•ito ieue aliem mn - e•adme kl - otz ncmd l•mrae u•tub l•makl [b]o•otz e•chiimb•thuk e•gn u•otz e•doth tub u•ro
and•he-is-causing-(to)-sprout Yaweh Elohim from the•ground ...[text shortened]... •tree-of the•lives[/b] in•midst-of the•garden and•tree-of the•knowledge-of good and•evil[/b]Thanks
Originally posted by stellspalfiesome of you blame one, some of you blame the other and some of you blame them both. its hard to write a post that caters for all christian beliefs.
[b]It was Adam's action--- not the woman's--- which brought sin into the world
some of you blame one, some of you blame the other and some of you blame them both. its hard to write a post that caters for all christian beliefs.
it is actually god who created sin not adam. by defining the consequences and creating the punishments god made sin. i ...[text shortened]... d arrange. he has no rules he needs to follow, he can create any rules, making it all arbitrary.[/b]
I "blame" no one, since I feel pretty confident I'd had done the same thing in the same situation--- maybe sooner, maybe later.
That being said, I totally agree with the catering issue.
he has no rules he needs to follow, he can create any rules, making it all arbitrary.
Arbitrary is based upon personal whim, which, in a sense, the systems put in place are based upon His personal whims... if you consider His characteristics "whims," I guess.
But let's rewinds a bit and see what actually happened in that situation.
God warned the man and the woman to stay away from the fruit of the one tree, letting them know "Dying, you will die."
According to your system, instead He should have let them know, "Playing football, you will play football."
Kinda loses its punch, right?
The fact of the matter is, there were literally zero restrictions in the Garden and their only 'break' from Paradise was sex--- so no shortage of that.
The two trees represented the choices man had to make: stay in the Garden and be with God forever--- thus live--- or choose to leave the Garden and be separated from Him forever--- death.
Your not-so-brilliant-or-well-thought-out plan carries so little weight in comparison, don't you think?
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There has been some discussion about the "trap" set in the garden of Eden. I am inclined to believe it was a trap. But it was a trap for Satan.
Satan got located and trapped in man. And then God became a man and took that Satanic poisoned man to the cross to destroy the Devil. In doing so He accomplished two things related to His eternal purpose:
1.) God created man in His image to express God.
2.) God created man to exercise dominion to rule for God.
Here these two crucial words are seen in the creation of man -
"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven ... etc. and all the earth and over every creeping thing which creeps upon the earth." (Genesis 1:26)
God created man to EXPRESS God and to REIGN for God.
The expression of God is related to the ministry of the priesthood.
And the dominion, the reigning as a deputy authority for God is related to the ministry of the kingship.
These two ministries are developed through the rest of the Bible.
But back to the "trap". The breaking of the command of Adam caused Satan to take the bait and be trapped in man. He attached himself to man. And though I cannot explain this fully, the Son of God became a man. This was like taking the trap with Satan in it and revealing God's love, glory and holiness and destroying the Devil on the cross.
Jesus died in the eyes of God in the form of the serpent the Devil -
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, That every one who believes into Him may have eternal life." (John 3:14,15)
This teaching of Jesus refers back to the book of Numbers where the children of Israel were bitten by poison serpents. They were all dying. God told Moses to make a pole with a bronze serpent upon it. Moses was to lift up the pole with the bronze serpent and whoever gazed upon the bronze serpent lifted up would be healed of the poison.
Now in the New Testament Jesus teaches that He is the antitype of that type. Jesus says He is the reality of what that symbol represented. Man is poisoned by the demonic and evil powers released by Adam's disobedience. Man got polluted and infested. This is a deep spiritual matter.
Then the Son of Man, Jesus died on the cross, not only as the "Lamb of God" for blood redemption but also as the bronze serpent lifted up to TERMINATE the evil nature by nullifying Satan's power in man.
Bronze usually speaks of judgment. And when Jesus died on the cross He said that Satan was judged. On the verge of His being put to death at Calvary Jesus said -
"Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (John 12:31)
Jesus' death was a casting out of Satan, the ruler of the world. The crucifixion of Jesus was a judgment upon the Satanified world and Satan.
Again, the Apostle John says Jesus, the Son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the devil -
" .... For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8b) .
I can testify that more and more the Son of God living in me is destroying the influence of Satan over me. When you feel dread at coming to Jesus Christ this is partly because of the dread of the indwelling Satan that he knows Jesus Christ will destroy the evil spirit's power over you.
Christ expresses God. Christ destroys the works of the devil. Christ recovers the image of God and God's glory and Christ reigns over the creeping things, especially the creep Satan who has gotten into every sinner.
The trap trapped the Satanic spirit running around in the unverse. It trapped him in man like a mouse in a mouse trap. Then God took this man to the cross to destroy the mouse caught in the trap. Here also:
"Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might destroy the one who has the might of death, that is, the devil." (Hebrews 2:14)
This is a brief note on a profound matter that requires much more elaboration for it involves the experiencial. Jesus took the weapon of the devil and used it to destroy the devil - " that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is, the devil."
So the trap was not for Adam. Adam was commanded not to eat the forbidden tree. But if he did, the trap was for Satan to be trapped in his infestation and attachment to mankind. And in this trap, God chose for His own reasons, to express His eternal righteousness, His eternal glory, and His eternal holiness by putting man ON Himself and taking this man up to the cross.
Praise the Lord that Adam's failure was also the cause for God to express Himself in man and to destroy the works of the devil.
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHGod warned the man and the woman to stay away from the fruit of the one tree, letting them know "Dying, you will die."
[b]some of you blame one, some of you blame the other and some of you blame them both. its hard to write a post that caters for all christian beliefs.
I "blame" no one, since I feel pretty confident I'd had done the same thing in the same situation--- maybe sooner, maybe later.
That being said, I totally agree with the catering issue.
he has ...[text shortened]... t-so-brilliant-or-well-thought-out plan carries so little weight in comparison, don't you think?
and this is my point. god had no reason to make the result of eating the fruit death, other than his desire to punish. there was nothing stopping him from choosing education as the result of eating the fruit. if adam and eve fail the first time then god re-educates or re-designs them until they do not give in to temptation. there is no logical reason for choosing the path towards redemption god choose (or that defying god should even require redemption).
According to your system, instead He should have let them know, "Playing football, you will play football."
Kinda loses its punch, right?
i dont have a system. the point is that the system god arranged is no more meaningful than any other. if god wants humans to arrive at 'x' he has decided that humans must do a,b,c and d when if fact any combination of letters could equally arrive at 'x' if god decided. it does not require a 'punch', if god decided it did require a 'punch' then he could arrange anything to be a 'punch'.
The two trees represented the choices man had to make: stay in the Garden and be with God forever--- thus live--- or choose to leave the Garden and be separated from Him forever--- death.
again these choices are meaningless. a pointless test. if god wants to adam to choose to stay then god could build him that way. god knows that we will eventually reach 'x' so why not just begin by creating the conditions the exist when 'x' is reached. why the pointless charade???
Your not-so-brilliant-or-well-thought-out plan carries so little weight in comparison, don't you think?
what plan?
Originally posted by FabianFnas
No no, you cannot trust the bible, if you ask me. It's a ragu of different stories and legends. All bible is written by men with an agenda. So the Adam & Eve story is quite amusing, but not at all true.
If you believe in this black book by the letter, then I understand why you don't follow my explanation why it is wrong. Read our conversation again and try to understand it.
No no, you cannot trust the bible, if you ask me. It's a ragu of different stories and legends. All bible is written by men with an agenda. So the Adam & Eve story is quite amusing, but not at all true.
Well that is your prerogative, not mine... I think I will stick to mine. You can trust the Bible and the Bible is true!
Originally posted by yoctobyteYou asked me, I answered you, no insult intended.No no, you cannot trust the bible, if you ask me. It's a ragu of different stories and legends. All bible is written by men with an agenda. So the Adam & Eve story is quite amusing, but not at all true.
Well that is your prerogative, not mine... I think I will stick to mine. You can trust the Bible and the Bible is true!
So you really the planet can host limitless number of people? Really?
Originally posted by stellspalfie
i do not set the rules regarding the heat of a flame and its effects on human skin. god did set the rules regarding what would happen if a+e ate from the tree. god could of set up any rules regarding what would happen if they ate from the tree.
for example the rule could be - if you eat from the tree i will sit you down and teach you why it is wron ...[text shortened]... ting rubiks cubes, saying the word 'anorak' 25 times, making a giant daisy chain.......anything.
i do not set the rules regarding the heat of a flame and its effects on human skin. god did set the rules regarding what would happen if a+e ate from the tree. god could of set up any rules regarding what would happen if they ate from the tree.
You miss the point, God did point out what would happen if A&E ate of the tree.
Genesis 2:17
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
for example the rule could be - if you eat from the tree i will sit you down and teach you why it is wrong.
Why a sit down after the fact, what could possibly be the point of such a sit down, another chance? God already said what would happen if the fruit was eaten, what else is there to say?
Originally posted by FabianFnasNo insult taken, thought never entered my mind.
You asked me, I answered you, no insult intended.
So you really the planet can host limitless number of people? Really?
Did I imply the planet could host limitless number of people? Who knows? I don't know what would have resulted had A&E not eaten the fruit. For all I know, it may have been the two of them.