Four Kinds of Forgiveness

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

To be trapped in samsara (the cycle of birth and death) is a result of ignorance of the true nature of our existence. It is ignorance (avidya) of one's true self that leads to ego-consciousness, grounding one in desire and a perpetual chain of reincarnation.

Is the desire to be untrapped self defeating because you still desire something in an ego centric way?

For a being to want to escape the "trap" seems to mean to take on the very desire for something which gives rise to the trap.

If desire leads to a trap and perpetual cycle of reincarnation, how then can yearning for Nirvana or freedom from the trap be anything but self defeating recursive repeating?

Freedom from the cyclic trap would seem to be to forget about being freed - thus forgetting about Hinduism.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Every action has a reaction and the force determines one's next incarnation.

Even the action of weed or ant that preceded your arrival as a human this cycle?

One is reborn through desire: A person desires to be born because he or she wants to enjoy a body, which can never bring deep, lasting happiness or peace (ānanda).

But the desire for freedom from the cyclic trap and absortion into the Oversoul or Cosmic unity is exempted I gather.

After many births every person becomes dissatisfied and begins to seek higher forms of happiness through spiritual experience.

Preceding this cycle of human being, did the preceding goat or muskrat that reincarnated as me also SEEK a higher level of desire ?

Did the weed or grass stalk seek a higher desire such that it was rewarded with returning as an ox or a woman ?

When, after spiritual practice (sādhanā), a person realizes that the true “self” is the immortal soul rather than the body or the ego all desires for the pleasures of the world will vanish since they will seem insipid compared to spiritual ānanda. [quote]

How is it that only when becoming a human there is awareness of spiritual ananda ?

What does the human possess that makes this awareness available to him but the preceding lower animal was unaware of it?

[quote]
When all desire has vanished the person will not be born again.

"All desire" includes or excludes the desire for freeing from the cycle of reincarnation ?

When the cycle of rebirth thus comes to an end, a person is said to have attained liberation (moksha).

Who has attained it? What is her or his name ?

[8] All schools agree this implies the cessation of worldly desires and freedom from the cycle of birth and death, though the exact definition differs. Followers of the Advaita Vedanta school believe they will spend eternity absorbed in the perfect peace and happiness of the realization that all existence is one Brahman of which the soul is part. Dvaita schools perform worship with the goal of spending eternity in a spiritual world or heaven (loka) in the blessed company of the Supreme Being.'

There was not a whole lot that I didn't know about before. However the details of schools was educational as my understanding of Reincarnation was more general.

Thanks for the review.

It is conceivable that the formation of such a philosophy also has its roots in very ancient recollections of the past and the origins of humans on earth. Only that with an emphasis on more mystical considerations.

In other words the descendents of those who came off of the ark of Noah, had musings and contemplations which developed into their take on the human dilemma.

"To desire itself is the problem. To want to be without unhappiness itself is the source of the problem."

I think it is possible that some of the early humans after the flood dispersed into deep thinking philosophical cultures who explored solutions unique to their dispositions for contemplating creation and existence along radical lines seeking to penetrate deeper into the mysteries of the world's evident misery.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

When all desire has vanished the person will not be born again.

And this principle was established by WHAT or WHO ?

This rule was instituted by WHAT or WHO or just is a brute given with no explanation ?

This rule kicks in because it is so determined by Who ?
Is there a benevolent force from all eternity that laws it that this principle is enacted?

@sonship said
@FMF

I will rephrase your question. "Why is there judgment of any kind at all from God ?"

I have rephrased your question to speak of ANY kind of judgment - temporary or eternal - from God against transgressors - remedial or retributive - corrective for betterment of destruction in vengeance.

Why should there be this aspect of God's activity at all?

There is pun ...[text shortened]... in a licentious universe where might makes right and evil can run amok with no concern for justice.

I haven't been saying "it's not fair". You've just made that up. I have been saying it's incoherent and not credible.

@sonship said
I will rephrase your question. "Why is there judgment of any kind at all from God ?"

No don't "rephrase the question". Answer this one: What is the moral purpose of threatening to torture non-believers for eternity if they are non-believers and they find the assertions of Christians not credible?

@sonship said
Crime can be committed against realities highest authority.
God's punishment is to afflict with loss or calamity because of committing crime, fault, offense against the moral norm of the final authority over existence.

Crime or fault is not overlooked by the Moral Governor of His creation. Justice is the putting back in balance the moral scales of the universe which have been made out of balance by the transgression against the law of God.

How can an honest and genuine lack of belief in the particular religion that you happen to profess be credibly described as a "crime"? That sounds like nothing other than a half-baked manmade groupist ideology.

@sonship said
The will of God is to be built up. The revolt against the will of God is to be destroyed and broken down. The well being of the enterprise of taking a way opposite to God's way is to be negatively inflicted, subtracted either for correction, deterrence, and repayment for the wrong done.

How can one be in "revolt" against something one doesn't believe exists. I don't believe your version of God exists. How can I "rebel" against something I have no credible reason to believe, your credulousness notwithstanding? How can it possibly be charachterized as a "deterrent" to people who don't believe the "crime" or the torturer god figure you worship exists?

@sonship said
Punishment informs of God's displeasure against the sinning one. It informs that one cannot get away with offending His law. Punishment may be delayed. But it is just that there be the negative reward to the transgressor. God is Just. Injustice will not go uncorrected forever.

What would be the moral purpose of torturing non-believers for eternity in secret after they die if the still-living non-believers do not know about it? 

@sonship said
Eternal punishment must be because an infinite sin exists.
Eternal punishment must be because there is an ultimate crime which receives an ultimate recompense.

So, your religion has you convinced that - for example - my Muslim neighbours who believe Jesus was a prophet ~ who will return in a Second Coming to establish peace on earth ~ are committing an "infinite" and "ultimate" and "perpetual" crime that means they deserve to be tortured in burning flames for eternity as an "eternal punishment"... although the carrying out of this "eternal punishment" is for all intents and purposes being kept secret from them [you have no evidence that it's true or that it's happening, right? Not one little jot, right?]. And all this is because they are not members of your religion. It sounds very partisan and manmade.

@sonship said
There is punishment because crime against God and man is an putting out of balance the moral scales by which the universe is governed by the Supreme Governor whose authority to CREATE it is also His authority to morally sustain it.

If I believe the Book of Revelation is not divinely inspired, is it a "crime against God"?

@FMF

No don't "rephrase the question". Answer this one: What is the moral purpose of threatening to torture non-believers for eternity if they are non-believers and they find the assertions of Christians not credible?

It is not every and all "assertions of Christians" that God demands that you find credible. So I will rephrase the question. It is asked in a form which assumes a point not made in the Bible.

That a Christian's position is that God said - "Thou shalt find credible all assertions of Christians or else I will torture you forever" is the innuendo-ed trap that you up set for me to walk into.

There are many assertions of Christians that you do not have to find credible. And you are not threatened with eternal torture if you at present find them not credible.

So you rephrase your question to not carry with it an incorrect innuendo. If you don't like my rephrasing of it because it is loaded with an implied error.

I won't walk into your trap - "Why am I threatened with forever torture for not finding the assertions of Christians to be credible?"

Or point me to a statement in the Bible which states - "A man will be tortured forever because of not finding believable the assertions of Christians."

There are assertions of Christians somewhere on this planet that I may not find credible also. I fear no wrath of God for not finding here and there particular assertions of some Christians hard to believe.

So refine your question if you didn't like the manner in which I refined it.

@FMF

How can one be in "revolt" against something one doesn't believe exists. I don't believe your version of God exists. How can I "rebel" against something I have no credible reason to believe, your credulousness notwithstanding? How can it possibly be charachterized as a "deterrent" to people who don't believe the "crime" or the torturer god figure you worship exists?

Are you innocent such that your conscience does not convict you about anything you have ever done ?

Put aside for the moment God's condemnation.
Have you ever been under self condemnation at all ?

Yes is your answer?
Or No is your answer?

Which ?

And answer the question I ask you and not another.
I do not ask you "Is all self condemnation valid?"
I assume there is such a thing as an over sensitive conscience in some instances.

My question is have you ever been under the self conviction of self condemnation for anything you have done?

Yes or No will answer the question.

@sonship said
@FMF

No don't "rephrase the question". Answer this one: What is the moral purpose of threatening to torture non-believers for eternity if they are non-believers and they find the assertions of Christians not credible?

It is not every and all "assertions of Christians" that God demands that you find credible. So I will rephrase the question. It is asked ...[text shortened]... hard to believe.

So refine your question if you didn't like the manner in which I refined it.

The threats made by torturer god ideologues are not credible. They sound manmade. Would it be "eternal justice" if you were punished-by-perpetual-torture after your death by the Islamic version of the Abrahamic God for not being a Muslim? The attempted coercion is nonsense. The attempted deterrence is nonsense. The morality of it is nonsense.

@sonship said
@FMF

[quote] How can one be in "revolt" against something one doesn't believe exists. I don't believe your version of God exists. How can I "rebel" against something I have no credible reason to believe, your credulousness notwithstanding? How can it possibly be charachterized as a "deterrent" to people who don't believe the "crime" or the torturer god figure you worship e ...[text shortened]... ion of self condemnation for anything you have done?

Yes or No will answer the question.

Here's what you are dodging. It's about your distortion of the English language in a gimmicky way:

How can one be in "revolt" against something one doesn't believe exists?

How can I "rebel" against something I have no credible reason to believe in?

@sonship said
Are you innocent such that your conscience does not convict you about anything you have ever done ?

I am not talking about reflecting on one's own morally unsound acts. I am not talking about supposedly sending myself to a "Hell" I don't believe exists.

I am not talking about deliberately arranging to have myself tortured in burning flames for eternity for not believing that such a revenge/punishment exists.

I am talking about lack of belief in the torturer god ideology that just so happens to appeal to you on some sort of partisan-misanthropic and psychological level.