22 Jan 19
@sonship saidI was responding to divegeester, as I felt that he sort of danced all around it in his post about Rev. 20 without actually addressing annihilationism. I mean I get that his raison d'etre here seems to be the denial of eternal torture, and yet he himself has said that he doesn't fully accept annihilationism as the answer either. He has said that it could be, but that he just doesn't know. I take that to mean he has no opinion on the matter, beyond his adamant argument that eternal torture is neither necessary or desirable to a loving God.
@Suzianne
All of this, and you miss the big point of Rev. 20.
Revelation 20:14 KJV
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
The lake of fire is the second death. After being cast into it, one ceases to exist.
Suzianne, you responding to me or Divegeester?
I think Divegeester already has that understan ...[text shortened]... you weigh in on the subject because you have never been belligerent about it as far as I can recall.
22 Jan 19
@divegeester saidThe group here, though, has bought a very lovely cage for their parrot and even though the parrot has moved on, they still cannot part with the cage. Just my opinion.
It’s you that’s missing the point which is clearly explained in my post. Hell is cast into the lake.
There is no such thing as hell...
It has ceased to be...
It is an ex-hell...
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I was responding to divegeester, as I felt that he sort of danced all around it in his post about Rev. 20 without actually addressing annihilationism. I mean I get that his raison d'etre here seems to be the denial of eternal torture, and yet he himself has said that he doesn't fully accept annihilationism as the answer either. He has said that it could be, but that he just doesn't know. I take that to mean he has no opinion on the matter, beyond his adamant argument that eternal torture is neither necessary or desirable to a loving God.
I see. So you really were arguing with Divegeester.
I thought he exaggerates your expressing disagreement with me by proxy. He exaggerates about the motivations of posters much.
A lot of this is repetitive cyclic re-arguing of points discussed before with the same poster over past years. But if there is something you would like me to address, just tell me what.
22 Jan 19
1 edit
@divegeester saidI know that you went round and round with robbie carrobie over what he called "his ministry", but I do think every Christian should be prepared to speak on their beliefs and to perhaps be ready to offer a "ministry" of sorts. We are all called to testify the Good News. When I speak with people who consider themselves "lost" or "without God", I focus on how God's love has changed my life in the here and now, instead of this ghoulish gospel of God's wrath. I've always said that the mainstream idea that God will punish all those who do not follow that person's particular brand of religious rules is simply a non-starter. Jesus came in God's name to save, not to destroy. Love is the only acceptable bait; hate is not part of God's plan.
Here’s another “kind of forgiveness...” from Thread 179732
[i]Hey I have some great news!
Ooh tell me!
Jesus loves you.
Who??
Jesus, Jesus in the Bible.
What’s the “Bible”?
It’s a book all about God.
Who wrote it?
Lots of people over thousands of years.
How do you know it’s true?
Because it says it is the truth and also my Pastor told ...[text shortened]... death and accept that it is error. At least then the good news may be morally coherent.
Thank you.
I didn't become a Christian because I loved all the ghoulish aspects of "payback" that seems to drive some Christians. I became convinced because here was a God that loved me, enough to sacrifice his only begotten Son so that I might live. I had just been through the most difficult time of my entire life, yet here was a God who laid down his life for me, and promised that I could have a more abundant life. I came for the promise, and stayed because it was true.
"Lake of Fire" motivation not needed, and I've never known it to work.
22 Jan 19
@sonship saidNot arguing so much, as maybe prompting him to go further.
@Suzianne
[quote] I was responding to divegeester, as I felt that he sort of danced all around it in his post about Rev. 20 without actually addressing annihilationism. I mean I get that his raison d'etre here seems to be the denial of eternal torture, and yet he himself has said that he doesn't fully accept annihilationism as the answer either. He has said that it could b ...[text shortened]... e poster over past years. But if there is something you would like me to address, just tell me what.
Saying "I don't know what's good, but this over here is bad" doesn't help much.
And yes, he does exaggerate much about posters' motivations.
As far as I know, I wasn't even addressing you at all, until you asked me something directly.
When I have a beef with you, sonship, I will let you know. 🙂
22 Jan 19
@suzianne saidYour version of the Christian God is utterly different from sonship's. He thinks the "perfect morality" demonstrated by his version of the Christian God is tormenting the "damned" in a burning fire for eternity. You don't. It's not an insignificant difference. It goes to the very essence of the Christian God's nature.
The group here, though, has bought a very lovely cage for their parrot and even though the parrot has moved on, they still cannot part with the cage. Just my opinion.
22 Jan 19
@divegeester saidThis is actually one of your better posts on this topic.
Who has the key to Hades, Jesus or Satan?
Just a thought.... but the answer is part of my position on hell.
Revelation 1:18
"and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
1 Corinthians 15:54-57
But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on i ...[text shortened]... orious and hell wasn't abolished.
I know you won't agree, but there it is for you to mull over.
You concentrate on scripture and for once, you do not concentrate on how you think some other poster might favor their opinion because they must be evilly motivated or something. Here you address the points without beating them about the head and shoulders for something they said or for how you think they are motivated. It shows that you put some thought into it and weren't just lashing out. More like this, please.
22 Jan 19
@fmf saidRealistically thinking, though, his ideology on this IS the Christian mainstream. Those of us speaking out about it here are in the minority.
Your version of the Christian God is utterly different from sonship's. He thinks the "perfect morality" demonstrated by his version of the Christian God is tormenting the "damned" in a burning fire for eternity. You don't. It's not an insignificant difference. It goes to the very essence of the Christian God's nature.
The pure love of God can save all of us. I'm not sure that the wrath of God has ever saved anyone.
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22 Jan 19
This is actually one of your better posts on this topic.
You concentrate on scripture and for once, you do not concentrate on how you think some other poster might favor their opinion because they must be evilly motivated or something. Here you address the points without beating them about the head and shoulders for something they said or for how you think they are motivated. It shows that you put some thought into it and weren't just lashing out. More like this, please.
That did not go unnoticed by me either.
IMO it was one of the better of his posts.
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22 Jan 19
1 edit
The pure love of God can save all of us. I'm not sure that the wrath of God has ever saved anyone.
When God swallowed up Pharoah and his pursuing army in the Red Sea in His wrath, was that an expression also of His love for His saved Israelites brought out in the Exodus ?
22 Jan 19
@suzianne saidThe two of you worship versions of supposedly the same God that are utterly and completely different at their very essence. You don't seem to have the courage of your convictions.
Realistically thinking, though, his ideology on this IS the Christian mainstream. Those of us speaking out about it here are in the minority.
The pure love of God can save all of us. I'm not sure that the wrath of God has ever saved anyone.
FMF: Let's talk about dads. What was your dad like, sonship?
sonship: He used to burn us on our arms with a lit cigarette when he was angry. The burns would go septic. We often couldn't sleep. He only did it to his step children, though. His own children, he always forgave them, even if he was angry. And I believe that is the morally sound way for a dad to be. We can learn from him.
FMF: Did yours do that too, Suzianne?
Suzianne: No. Never. But dads are dads. It's ok for people like sonship to promote what his dad did as being the essence of how dads should be. I won't oppose him over it in any significant way.
sonship: Thanks Suzianne.
Suzianne: divegeester thinks sonship's dad's behaviour was atrocious and immoral and just won't shut up about it when we discuss fatherhood.
sonship: He's annoying, isn't he?
Suzianne: Yes very.
sonship: Thanks Suzianne.
Suzianne: He doesn't seem to realize that your dad and my dad were essentially the same. And I wasn't one of his step children and never will be, so what does it matter?
sonship: Thanks for your support, Suzianne.
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22 Jan 19
1 edit
Your version of the Christian God is utterly different from sonship's. He thinks the "perfect morality" demonstrated by his version of the Christian God is tormenting the "damned" in a burning fire for eternity. You don't. It's not an insignificant difference. It goes to the very essence of the Christian God's nature.
Why shouldn't you be made to suffer forever for being against God?
Is it because you love yourself so much that God should not let you know what He thinks about your irreconcilable enmity ?
Your deep self love makes your eternal punishment not just of God ?
@suzianne saidThen what is the purpose of threatening to - and then carrying out - the torment of non-believers in burning flames for eternity?
The pure love of God can save all of us. I'm not sure that the wrath of God has ever saved anyone.
What is the moral purpose of it? If you don't think "that the wrath of God has ever saved anyone", what on earth is the eternal torture after death for?
Why threaten it if it has never saved anyone?
You and sonship are talking about versions of the Christian God that reside in two completely different moral and logical universes.