31 Oct 06
Taking the thought previously posted within the "What's wrong with evolution" thread, I asserted that reason itself is reason enough to discount evolution and/or happenstance as the cause of life as we know it. Due to circumstances beyond my control, I was unable to continue the divergence and the thread took another direction.
I will here take this assertion up anew. The first phase of the argument involves establishing the mechanistic materialism which (I believe) encompasses the majority of atheistic positions. I ask any of the proclaimed atheists if there be any school of atheistic thought which does not entail mechanistic materialsm?
31 Oct 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHGod doesn't exist. Consciousness is a non-material property of minds. These two theses together entail a non-materialistic atheistic position. Combine this with some libertarian notion of freedom of the will, or with stochastic physical laws, or with metaphysical randomness, and you get rid of the mechanistic part too.
Taking the thought previously posted within the "What's wrong with evolution" thread, I asserted that reason itself is reason enough to discount evolution and/or happenstance as the cause of life as we know it. Due to circumstances beyond my control, I was unable to continue the divergence and the thread took another direction.
I will here take this as ...[text shortened]... sts if there be any school of atheistic thought which does not entail mechanistic materialsm?
01 Nov 06
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHPersonally, I am a materialist. I'm not sure about mechanistic, but maybe. I don't have all the answers by any means, I merely place a degree of bias upon the likelyhood of such things. My atheism is not entwined in this, I consider that based purely upon a lack of evidence for god and not upon any other theory, belief etc.
Taking the thought previously posted within the "What's wrong with evolution" thread, I asserted that reason itself is reason enough to discount evolution and/or happenstance as the cause of life as we know it. Due to circumstances beyond my control, I was unable to continue the divergence and the thread took another direction.
I will here take this as ...[text shortened]... sts if there be any school of atheistic thought which does not entail mechanistic materialsm?
How do you suggest reason is reason enough to discount evolution?
EDIT: Whilst I'm on the subject I think I should read up on Bayesian probability, anyone reccommend a good introductory book?
01 Nov 06
4 edits
Originally posted by StarrmanJob.
EDIT: Whilst I'm on the subject I think I should read up on Bayesian probability, anyone reccommend a good introductory book?
After reading it, as an exercise, estimate the conditional probability that an omnibenevolent God exists given that the account is true. Demonstrate your mastery of the concept of prior probability by additionally incorporating the facts of the massacres carried out in the Pentateuch into your estimate.
01 Nov 06
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHAre you asserting that the existence of reason in itself *disproves* evolution by random selection?
Taking the thought previously posted within the "What's wrong with evolution" thread, I asserted that reason itself is reason enough to discount evolution and/or happenstance as the cause of life as we know it. Due to circumstances beyond my control, I was unable to continue the divergence and the thread took another direction.
I will here take this as ...[text shortened]... sts if there be any school of atheistic thought which does not entail mechanistic materialsm?
Even if evolution by random selection does not suffice to explain the existence of reason fully (a view to which I incline), it does not follow that the existence of reason disproves evolution by random selection; even if Y is not explained by X, Y can still be compatible with X. Nor does it follow that God must be the explanation for why reason exists, should evolution by random selection fail to explain it fully; if Y is not explained by X, then the explanation need not be a particular Z, unless Z is both a good explanation, and is better than any rival explanation.
01 Nov 06
Originally posted by bbarrThe leftovers will be pesky, of course. How do you account for the material world, if not as described?
God doesn't exist. Consciousness is a non-material property of minds. These two theses together entail a non-materialistic atheistic position. Combine this with some libertarian notion of freedom of the will, or with stochastic physical laws, or with metaphysical randomness, and you get rid of the mechanistic part too.
01 Nov 06
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI'm sorry, I can't parse your posts above. What else do you want me to provide? I thought I sketched a position that had all the necessary components. Now you want me to explain the nature (existence? beginning?) of the material world? I'm just showing you that there can be a nonmaterialist, nonmechanistic atheistic position, which is all you asked for.
Read his post again. He addressed everything but the material. While in the scheme of things, a small thing; however, for the time being, it sure seems pretty big.
EDIT: Yes, I did "address the material". An atheist that maintains that consciousness is non-material property of minds is not a materialist. Anyway, an atheist could be a monist and believe that the world is all mind (like Berkeley, or John Foster) and dispense with the entirety of the material world.
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by bbarrHere, I will parse the original post for you:
I'm sorry, I can't parse your posts above. What else do you want me to provide? I thought I sketched a position that had all the necessary components. Now you want me to explain the nature (existence? beginning?) of the material world? I'm just showing you that there can be a nonmaterialist, nonmechanistic atheistic position, which is all you asked for.
...[text shortened]... mind (like Berkeley, or John Foster) and dispense with the entirety of the material world.
"I asserted that reason itself is reason enough to discount evolution and/or happenstance as the cause of life as we know it."
From there, I asked if I had overlooked any atheistic viewpoint which could explain the existence of 'life as we know it' (i.e., the material world) from anything other than mechanistic materialism.
03 Nov 06
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHOh, sorry, I didn't realize what you were asking. I'm an advocate of evolutionary theory, but I'm not a materialist and I don't think that the all events are causally determined (some are metaphysically random).
Here, I will parse the original post for you:
"I asserted that reason itself is reason enough to discount evolution and/or happenstance as the cause of life as we know it."
From there, I asked if I had overlooked any atheistic viewpoint which could explain the existence of 'life as we know it' (i.e., the material world) from anything other than mechanistic materialism.
I'm not sure if you are confused or if you are just being unclear, but asking for an explanation of "life as we know it" is not the same thing as asking for an explanation of "the material world" (so you probably should not use the "i.e." to link the two). I'm agnostic about how the material world came about. Indeed, I'm agnostic as to whether the world is actually material, and whether it ever, in fact, came about. But there is pretty good evidence, discussed at length in these threads and in innumberable books on the topic, that life "as we know it" arose through evolutionary processes.
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHMaybe I'm just too dense to understand (not a stretch, as you know), but why is a "mechanistic materialism" viewpoint necessarily bad? Can you provide any details on a theistic perspective of "life as we know it" that doesn't require ad-hoc arguments relying on untestable supernatural axioms?
From there, I asked if I had overlooked any atheistic viewpoint which could explain the existence of 'life as we know it' (i.e., the material world) from anything other than mechanistic materialism.
03 Nov 06
Originally posted by bbarrSince you are agnostic regarding the material world, your view cannot be considered atheistic. Maybe you can get in on the next game?
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize what you were asking. I'm an advocate of evolutionary theory, but I'm not a materialist and I don't think that the all events are causally determined (some are metaphysically random).
I'm not sure if you are confused or if you are just being unclear, but asking for an explanation of "life as we know it" is not the same thing as ...[text shortened]... oks on the topic, that life "as we know it" arose through evolutionary processes.
Your take on reality is unique and (while worthy of a whole other thread) causes one to ponder how reality is determined.