Spirituality
28 May 15
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
How many wars are really about religion these days? Even if that's a component, is it the only one? Isn't it fair to say the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are far more about oil, and the rise of ISIS is also about repelling foreign invaders and gaining control of territory?
I say it's a myth that the number of wars would decrease even if one could snap one's fingers and end all religion. Countries would use the myriad other reasons they have for war to continue to justify it. Religion just tends to be a shortcut towards back-filling moral justification for something they were going to do regardless.
Of course there are often more complicated reasons than just religion.
That doesn't negate the influence it has over people. It is utterly illogical and yet people will kill other people simply because of this difference in beliefs.
It is simply one of many things that creates a completely unnecessary border between us as humans.
Likewise it would be fantastic if we - in time - would regard ourselves as World Citizens rather than Dutch, American or Iranian.
Religion just happens to be an incredibly powerful tool in creating divisiveness (is that a word?) between us, since it ultimately speaks to our deepest fears - unavoidable death - and offers solutions that are too good to be true if only you do as we tell you.
Originally posted by Great King RatBut why do people seek religion in the first place? Is it not a need for a feeling of security and purpose in an otherwise-chaotic universe?
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
[b]How many wars are really about religion these days? Even if that's a component, is it the only one? Isn't it fair to say the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are far more about oil, and the rise of ISIS is also about repelling foreign invaders and gaining control of territory?
I say it's a myth t ...[text shortened]... death - and offers solutions that are too good to be true if only you do as we tell you.
Religion is illogical because humans are often illogical. We are not beings of pure logic. We are driven by primal urges and passion. We hold values that cannot be logically reconciled. Show me a person that claims their entire worldview is logically coherent, and I'll show you a person who hasn't thought that hard about their own worldview, or is as capable of self-delusion as any religionist.
So, until we find a compelling, alternative way to help our fellow humans deal with reality, I think we're stuck with some religion for now. I think the best hope is to temper and moderate it with progressive values. Taking it away 'just like that' would be way too big a shock to the systems of the followers. (Assuming religion is de facto a bad thing, which actually, I don't think. Religion inspires both wars and altruism. What we ought to be doing is working with people that practice religion in a way that benefits society as a whole.)
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29 May 15
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemI did notice that, and was certain that you did mean me.
I'm talking about a group of people, which most definitely includes you.
Didn't you notice the reference about people wasting time debating if babies are atheists? That one's in there for you personally.
And your accusation is still completely inapplicable.
Absolutely. They seem to want to make atheism into a sort of Bizarro-religion; a dark parody of what they despise. They are the ones who actually debate questions like, "are babies atheists?" They pay their tithe to the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science and recite the Scientific Method 3 times a day while facing Christopher Hitchens' grave.
"They seem to want to make atheism into a sort of Bizarro-religion"
Nope. Atheism is a lack of belief in gods. That's it.
My positive beliefs about morality and reasoning and my world view have nothing to do with atheism.
My atheism is simply a product of them.
I view atheists who do seem to want to create an 'atheist religion' like 'alain de botton' as generally missing the point
and often [particularly in his case] with some scorn.
I would like atheism to become irrelevant due to belief in gods [and the supernatural in general] to become such an
irrelevant minority view that it no longer matters.
Movement atheism is important and relevant only in as much as theists keep trying to impose their crazy beliefs and
their consequences on everyone else, and in as much as there are often no suitable social support groups for people
who are not religious. Which are meaningful and important missions, but do not come close to resembling any sort of
religion.
"They are the ones who actually debate questions like, "are babies atheists?""
You fail to demonstrate that there is actually anything wrong with this.
There are a whole bunch of reasons why this can be a relevant topic of discussion, not least because it's true and disputed.
They pay their tithe to the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science and recite the Scientific Method 3 times a day while facing Christopher Hitchens' grave.
Never read any of Dawkins Books, don't like him personally, find him generally irritating, don't regard him as a role model.
Hitchins' similarly.
'The scientific method' is important when trying to establish the truth of some claim. It's not however part of atheism.
In short, your accusation is total bunk. Try again.
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29 May 15
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
But why do people seek religion in the first place? Is it not a need for a feeling of security and purpose in an otherwise-chaotic universe?
Religion is illogical because humans are often illogical. We are not beings of pure logic. We are driven by primal urges and passion. We hold values that cannot be logically reconciled. Show me a person ...[text shortened]... is working with people that practice religion in a way that benefits society as a whole.)
So, until we find a compelling, alternative way to help our fellow humans deal with reality, I think we're stuck with some religion for now.
Let me introduce you to secular humanism.
29 May 15
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemI disagree. Most of the wars and conflicts are made significantly worse by religion. Religion makes it much easier to recruit and to fan the flames of the conflict. Sure, you may say the ISIS conflict is about territory, but the reality is that without religion, they would not be getting the funding they are getting, or would their opposition be getting the same level of funding. They wouldn't even be getting the same level of news coverage. The civil war in the Congo went largely unremarked by the world because religion was not involved. I am sure some racism too is responsible for it being ignored, but if religion was involved it would still have got more coverage even if all those involved are black.
I say it's a myth that the number of wars would decrease even if one could snap one's fingers and end all religion. Countries would use the myriad other reasons they have for war to continue to justify it. Religion just tends to be a shortcut towards back-filling moral justification for something they were going to do regardless.
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29 May 15
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemStraw man. We DON'T only address the ONE thing.
If there are "many" things, then why do we only seem to address the ONE thing, namely, religion? Don't we need to broaden our skepticism a bit?
However this is a forum for discussing that ONE thing, so it tends to be the focus of discussion.
If you want to discuss something else, go elsewhere.
And I often say that atheists can and often are as irrational as the next person, and point out that
my main objection [beyond specific evils] is to faith based belief in anything.
And why I talk about the importance of teaching logic and reason because we naturally suck at
thinking rationally and how hard it is to do.
Perhaps you should listen more.
29 May 15
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemWho is "we"? The people on this sub-forum called "Spirituality", where we (are supposed to) discuss "Spirituality"?
If there are "many" things, then why do we only seem to address the ONE thing, namely, religion? Don't we need to broaden our skepticism a bit?
Or people in general?
Because in general "we" tend to be critical of a lot of things that are not beneficial to our fellow humans (and nature). A lot of people are worried about the gap between rich and poor for instance, and try - albeit sometimes in bad ways - to reduce that gap.
In fact, I would say there is a lot more uproar in the world over stuff like inequality and mistreatment of our natural surroundings than there is about the illogical nature of religion.
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemI agree with almost all of this, however none of this should stop us from pointing out the fact that a belief in god is based on absolutely nothing.
But why do people seek religion in the first place? Is it not a need for a feeling of security and purpose in an otherwise-chaotic universe?
Religion is illogical because humans are often illogical. We are not beings of pure logic. We are driven by primal urges and passion. We hold values that cannot be logically reconciled. Show me a person ...[text shortened]... is working with people that practice religion in a way that benefits society as a whole.)
Altruism does happen without religion as well and personally I would rather see a society where people are altruistic because they wish to help their fellow humans instead of humans being altruistic because they believe it may secure their ticket into heaven.
Nobody is seriously suggesting to take away religion "just like that", because that would be impossible and the thing closest to it would be to ban religion, which again is undesirable and I dare you to find one atheist on this website who would be in favour of that. Doesn't mean we can't slowly "nudge" people into seeing how terribly illogical their beliefs are.
As I like to think, theists often appear to have no idea how wonderful the world looks like without the burden of religion on their shoulders. And yes, that includes the painful truth of our mortality.
29 May 15
Originally posted by twhiteheadhttp://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31400000/Daniel-dr-daniel-jackson-31428782-900-540.jpg
Not long ago you claimed that:
a) you read other peoples posts carefully to avoid misunderstanding them.
b) that you hated having your own views misrepresented.
Yet you seem to have no qualms whatsoever about outright lying about other peoples views.
29 May 15
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou say "I disagree" but I don't see much, if anything, in your post that contradicts anything I have said.
I disagree. Most of the wars and conflicts are made significantly worse by religion. Religion makes it much easier to recruit and to fan the flames of the conflict. Sure, you may say the ISIS conflict is about territory, but the reality is that without religion, they would not be getting the funding they are getting, or would their opposition be getting t ...[text shortened]... eligion was involved it would still have got more coverage even if all those involved are black.
29 May 15
Originally posted by googlefudgeNo, thank you. I have heard too much from you already. 😴
Straw man. We DON'T only address the ONE thing.
However this is a forum for discussing that ONE thing, so it tends to be the focus of discussion.
If you want to discuss something else, go elsewhere.
And I often say that atheists can and often are as irrational as the next person, and point out that
my main objection [beyond specific evils] is ...[text shortened]... lly suck at
thinking rationally and how hard it is to do.
Perhaps you should listen more.