God Fails At Salvation?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
In Matthew 20:1-16, the parable of the hired laborers, it is my understanding that Jesus is underscoring the impartiality of God's grace toward sinners in general.

Whether they are His immediate disciples, or believers two thousand years in the future; whether it's someone who's been a believer all his life, or someone who's been a believer since two ...[text shortened]... After the day has ended, after the flesh has died, genuine faith is impossible.

Really. so you belive in a man who think is god?
wake up
god cant die
one thing more
2 law from God you shouldnt have athor gods beside me.

Originally posted by vistesd
And this goes to the original question of this thread. God either ultimately saves (my argument); or God fails to save, and is frustrated in his desire to save by human beings or by the evil one; or God always only intended salvation for his chosen "elect," from the beginning.

I think the biblical record makes it clear that God chooses those upon whom He will have mercy, from the beginning: "He chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan" (Ephesians 1:11). He does not fail, because every one that He chose is not lost: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand" (John 10:27-29). Therefore, God always only intended salvation for his chosen 'elect', from the beginning. As I said, the biblical account bears this out.

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Regarding who 'chooses' to believe in Christ, only the elect hear His voice ('My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me'😉. Whether anyone believes this is unfair of God makes no difference; God is God, He is Who He is, and it is He Who decides reality without any input from us, e.g. gravity is the way it is because God made it that way without any input from us. My attitude towards the perceived unfairness of God's ways (that He doesn't save everybody) is the same, to accept it as reality the same as I accept gravity as reality -- unquestioningly. "That's just the way things are." God does what He does, not what I think He should do. (As it should be...)

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Regarding eternal suffering vs. destruction, I'll explore that more later on...

Originally posted by theprotectors
Really. so you belive in a man who think is god?
wake up
god cant die
one thing more
2 law from God you shouldnt have athor gods beside me.

For instance, vistesd, this fellow (theprotectors) does not believe in Jesus Christ, but were he one of God's elect, yes, he would eventually 'hear' the Truth in the voice of Jesus Christ and repent and believe. There is no indication now that that is the case, but neither is there to the contrary. Nobody knows, not even himself. The distinguishing factor is whether or not a person is given the 'ears to hear'; those who do hear are given faith. Otherwise he will be bound in sin and unbelief until the day of judgment (although my hope is that he may be saved before that time).

May God's grace be with you, sir.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Is it your position that Paul always means only believers when he says “all”?

For comparitive purposes, read these two similar passages:

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"And if Christ hath not risen, then void [is] our preaching, and void also your faith, and we also are found false witnesses of God, bec ain contextual instances he is. The above passage in Romans being a perfect example.[/b]

In the first passage Paul is speaking in generic terms: all men will rise from the dead, whether that is to eternal life or to judgment, individually speaking, the fact remains that the dead will rise. What Paul is saying is that all men will rise at the last day; what Paul is not saying is that all men will rise to eternal life. For if there is no resurrection of the dead for judgment, then there is no vindication of faith in Jesus Christ. All men will be raised from the dead, but not all men will escape judgment.

I see this as no way incompatible with my position. I have not denied judgment in my argument—I have argued that (1) judgment is not to be confused with verdict, and (2) a negative verdict does not necessarily mean either (a) total annihilation or (b) eternal suffering (the latter being inconsistent with a God who is agape).

I am speaking here in terms of your juridical view, but the above can easily be re-phrased in terms of soterias as making-whole/healing.

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NRS Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. [Or godless or profane] 7 Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person-- though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die. 8 But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for [/b]us[/b]. 9 Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath* of God. 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. 11 But more than that, we even boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned-- 13 sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14 Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man's trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many. 16 And the free gift is not like the effect of the one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. 17 If, because of the one man's trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. 19 For just as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 But law came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, just as sin exercised dominion in death, so grace might also exercise dominion through justification leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

* orge can also mean impulse, feeing, disposition, passion.

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At the very least, this moving between “we” and “all” and “many” seems confusing. There are a number of possibilities: (1) “all” simply doesn’t mean “all”; (2) “all” refers only to the “we”; (3) “all” refers to the “many” (which implies that the elect are not few); (4) the “many” and the “we” refer to “all”; (4) this is simply sloppy exposition; or (5) Paul couldn’t make up his mind; or...

However, I find the usage of “many” interesting, since in each case (including the “much more”—pollo mallon, “many more” or “all the more”—in verses 15 and 17) it is a form the same Greek word polus (or pleon): many, much, ample, the majority, the greater part, etc.

I don’t think Paul was being sloppy. This is his least pastoral (since he did not found, and perhaps had not yet been to, the church in Rome) and most theological letter.

Paul could be “hedging” his “bet” in 1st Corinthians 22 (“for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” )—but I find that unlikely. In that letter, I think it is clear that “all” means “all”.

There is perhaps a clue in the text: In both verses 15 and 19, the phrase is not simply “many”—but “the many.” The definite article is not just in translation, but in the Greek as well. Further, one cannot logically separate “the many” who “died through one man’s trespass” from “the many” for whom the grace of Christ abounded—nor “the many” who were “made sinners” from “the many” who will be “made righteous.” Just as one cannot separate “just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all” from “so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.”[b]

In other words, you can’t say that “all” are subject to the burden of original sin (or the curse of the law), but only “many” receive justification and life. The parallelism is complete. You can’t reasonably change the terms on one side of the equation and not the other. [b]In order to give up the effective universalism of grace here, you also have to give up the universalism of original sin.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I think the biblical record makes it clear that God chooses those upon whom He will have mercy, from the beginning: "He chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan" (Ephesians 1:11). He does not fail, because every one that He chose is not lost: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them et ...[text shortened]... Regarding eternal suffering vs. destruction, I'll explore that more later on...

Regarding eternal suffering vs. destruction, I'll explore that more later on...

Just two notes:

(1) By eternal suffering, I mean something more than what we may now experience as part and parcel of the human condition (ala, perhaps, C.S. Lewis’ The Great Divorce—in which whatever suffering those not in the Kingdom experience is neither (a) punitive, nor (b) so egregious as to even be recognized by them as suffering, nor (c) necessary).

(2) Simple destruction I would—off the top of my head—not find either in conflict with God as agape,* or necessarily unjust. After all, it’s what anyone expects who does not think there is an afterlife.

* I would, however, find any hint that God’s agape extends only to the “elect” to be a denial of John’s definition, in favor of simply saying that what John “really meant” was that God loves the elect.

Again, if God is agape, then every other attribute and action of God is imbued with agape.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
A thought--wouldn't eternal suffering / hell ruin the perfection of paradise? Sorry if off topic.

Not off topic.

Some people claim that those in paradise “forget” that there are those—perhaps some of their loved ones—in eternal torment (of course, those same people have to reconcile themselves to that now). Some have claimed that watching the torment of souls in hell gives pleasure to those in paradise (that seems a bit pathological to me).

But presumably God would know... So God would either take some sort of satisfaction at that, or not—in which case God would know that he had failed at the salvation project.

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]In the first passage Paul is speaking in generic terms: all men will rise from the dead, whether that is to eternal life or to judgment, individually speaking, the fact remains that the dead will rise. What Paul is saying is that all men will rise at the last day; what Paul is not saying is that all men will rise to eternal life. For if there is no resurr versalism of grace here, you also have to give up the universalism of original sin.[/b]

Paul could be “hedging” his “bet” in 1st Corinthians 22 (“for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” )—but I find that unlikely. In that letter, I think it is clear that “all” means “all”.

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--Allow me to give my interpretation of this scripture...

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NRS Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. [Or godless or profane] 7 Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person-- though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die. 8 But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. 9 Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath* of God. 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. 11 But more than that, we even boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

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--This portion of the epistle is unquestionably addressed to believers. In Paul's words, "You (believers) were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross" (Colossians 2:10-15).

--Reconciliation is conditional, not unconditional. We can only experience the unconditional aspect of God's agape love, the forgiveness of all our sins no matter how heinous, only by first believing in Jesus Christ ('You trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead'😉. This fact cannot be denied. Salvation is not accomplished without our obedience. An unrepentant murderer who dies in his sins, for instance, does not get into heaven: "Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves" (1 Corinthians 6:9). God demands obedience to Jesus Christ, and those who refuse to obey Jesus Christ are not forgiven. And those who don't receive eternal life, apollumi (are fully destroyed). Jesus Himself makes this clear in John 3:16...

--Therefore, we cannot possibly conclude that Paul means that through Christ 'all' men will be saved, because the Good News is conditional upon obedience.

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12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned-- 13 sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14 Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man's trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many. 16 And the free gift is not like the effect of the one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. 17 If, because of the one man's trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

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--Again, 'those who receive', delineates a portion, not all.

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18 Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all."

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-- What Paul is saying is that, if anyone is going to be justified and given life it is through one Man, just as through one man sin entered the world. He is stressing the canceling out of oneman's trespass by one man's act of righteousness. Paul is not meaning to let everybody off the hook by denying the necessity of obedience to the Good News.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Paul could be “hedging” his “bet” in 1st Corinthians 22 (“for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” )—but I find that unlikely. In that letter, I think it is clear that “all” means “all”.

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--Allow me to give my interpretation of this scripture...

____ rybody off the hook by denying the necessity of obedience to the Good News.[/b]

First, I want you to know that I respect serious exegesis, such as yours here , even if I disagree. 🙂

Second, I have not said there is no distinction between the faithful, such as Paul is addressing, and others—it is only the ultimate outcome of that distinction that I am arguing (the same for letting anyone “off the hook” ).

Third, I admit that apollumi is going to be a key term here; I’ll address it when I can.

Fourth, although Paul is addressing “believers,” that does not necessarily indicate that when he says “all” or “the many”—or even “we” (although I reaching a bit more here)—that he only includes that group. (Look, I might say something on here like, “We are all in the image of the Logos”—that doesn’t mean that I am speaking only of those of us on these forums.)* Again, however, I do not argue that Paul does not distinguish at least some of the time in at least some sense.

Fifth, I see this whole section as being of a piece. But even if it isn’t, I don’t think you can say that—within the bounds of one sentence—Paul means that “all” are led to condemnation through the trespass of one man, but that in the second half of that very sentence (“so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all” ) the “all” now means something different.

That would be like me saying: “I brought all the cookies, but I ate them all”—but really meaning that I only ate a couple out of the box...

Sixth, with regard to verse 17, let me offer a different rendering—**

>> YLT Romans 5:17 for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving, in life shall reign through the one—Jesus Christ.

There are two interesting points to me here: (1) “are receiving” may be closer to the Greek; and (2) since there is no punctuation in the original Greek, I wonder what happens to the sense of this if the comma after “receiving” is moved to after “life”... It seems not at all clear in the Greek whether “in life” refers to “are receiving” or “shall reign.”

In any event, “receiving” here can apparently be taken either in an active or a passive sense: “The word [lambano] has two main senses, one (more active) take; the other (more passive) receive.” (Liddel-Scott Greek-English Lexicon—“LSJ”.) Not too hard to guess where each of is going to come down on that one... 🙂 Nevertheless, I missed that... 😳

Seventh, although I have not gotten to Colossians yet, the text you cite seems clear that Paul is speaking at that point to them. But I don’t think (yet) that can be taken as conclusive for the larger picture.

Eighth, I don’t think even you want to let 1st Corinthians 6:9 stand alone as you’ve quoted it—otherwise we’re back to “faith versus works.” And that is another issue entirely... (One on which we may or may not agree on.)

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* After all, you and I today, from different perspectives, are not claiming that Paul meant only the Christians of his time when he said “we.” Although, given his apparent expectation of the imminent parousia, one could argue that he did, and never expected that such as you and I would be reading his letters...

** I like that we are working with different translations as well as the Greek; just for curiosity, I usually start with NRSV first—what is your preferred translation, if you have one?

Originally posted by vistesd
First, I want you to know that I respect serious exegesis, such as yours here , even if I disagree. 🙂

Second, I have not said there is no distinction between the faithful, such as Paul is addressing, and others—it is only the ultimate outcome of that distinction that I am arguing (the same for letting anyone “off the hook” ).

Third[/ curiosity, I usually start with NRSV first—what is your preferred translation, if you have one?

Seventh, although I have not gotten to Colossians yet, the text you cite seems clear that Paul is speaking at that point to them. But I don’t think (yet) that can be taken as conclusive for the larger picture.

For our subject matter (election and damnation) I believe this passage is conclusive:

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:13-15).

My question is, what scripture gives conclusive support to the universalist's belief that God will eventually pluck them out of the fire? I seem to remember you saying once that it is a scripturally untenable view, and unfit for doctrine... Other than a preconceived notion of what God's agape love should entail, how can one possibly entertain the hope that obedience to the Son of God isn't ultimately necessary for salvation? ...Biblically speaking.

It's too much of a stretch for me to believe that one little passage in Romans 5 (v. 18) cancels out the entire message of the Gospel of redemption, as delineated by every book throughout the NT.

Eighth, I don’t think even you want to let 1st Corinthians 6:9 stand alone as you’ve quoted it—otherwise we’re back to “faith versus works.” And that is another issue entirely... (One on which we may or may not agree on.)

"Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves" (1 Corinthians 6:9)

We don't have to get into a 'faith vs. works' argument. What this passage makes clear is that 'those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God,' which disproves the theory that those who reject Christ and die in their sins might someday enter the Kingdom of God. Isn't that the universalist's hope? Paul says, 'don't fool yourselves.'

Fifth, I see this whole section as being of a piece. But even if it isn’t, I don’t think you can say that—within the bounds of one sentence—Paul means that “all” are led to condemnation through the trespass of one man, but that in the second half of that very sentence (“so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all” ) the “all” now means something different.

That would be like me saying: “I brought all the cookies, but I ate them all”—but really meaning that I only ate a couple out of the box...

My point was, that the main thrust of that verse is Paul's comparison of Adam and the Christ. It's like me saying: "Just as one man bought the cookies, so through one man all the cookies are devoured." Keep in mind I have not indicated how many cookies are actually devoured. The logical conclusion being that if the cookies are to be eaten, they must go through this one man -- and no other. We can discover elsewhere whether the man devours every cookie or not. (Mmm, cookies do sound good.)

I like that we are working with different translations as well as the Greek; just for curiosity, I usually start with NRSV first—what is your preferred translation, if you have one?

I own a New Revised Standard Version, New Living Translation, Amplified, King James Version, The Message, and an English Standard Version. My memory recalls scriptures from the King James exclusively for some reason, so that's my go to bible at the start. For accuracy I generally consult the NLT, NRSV, AMP triumvirate. Still, the KJV's English sticks with me better than them all. I think, regardless of its difficulties and errors, it is still the most profound translation.

For quick reference online I use biblegateway. That's where I find the YLT among others.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
A thought--wouldn't eternal suffering / hell ruin the perfection of paradise? Sorry if off topic.

"The path of life leads upward for the wise; they leave the grave behind" (Psalm 15:24).

"Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits in the place of honor at God’s right hand" (Colossians 3:1).

"If they had longed for the country they came from, they could have gone back. But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them" (Hebrews 11:15-16).

"And then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. They sang: 'Blessing and honor and glory and power belong to the one sitting on the throne and to the Lamb forever and ever'" (Revelation 5:13).

"For this world is not our permanent home; we are looking forward to a home yet to come. Therefore, let us offer through Jesus a continual sacrifice of praise to God, proclaiming our allegiance to his name" (Hebrews 13:14-15).

"That God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (1 Peter 4:11).

"And from the throne came a voice that said, “Praise our God, all his servants, all who fear him, from the least to the greatest.” Then I heard again what sounded like the shout of a vast crowd or the roar of mighty ocean waves or the crash of loud thunder: “Praise the Lord! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns" (Revelation 19:5-6).

"This is a trustworthy saying: If we die with him, we will also live with him. If we endure hardship, we will reign with him" (2 Timothy 2:11-12).

"No longer will there be a curse upon anything. For the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there, and his servants will worship him. And they will see his face, and his name will be written on their foreheads. And there will be no night there—no need for lamps or sun—for the Lord God will shine on them. And they will reign forever and ever" (Revelation 22:3-5).

"Don’t let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, and trust also in me. There is more than enough room in my Father’s home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am" (John 14:1-3).

"His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master'" (Matthew 25:21).

"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven" (Matthew 22:30).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Ephesians 1:3-4).

"For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6-7).

"Moses himself was so frightened at the sight that he said, “I am terrified and trembling.” No, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to countless thousands of angels in a joyful gathering. You have come to the assembly of God’s firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect" (Hebrews 12:21-23).

"I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, I press on to reach the end of the race and receive the heavenly prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us" (Philippians 3:13-14).

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever" (Revelation 21:4).

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I would say the answer to your question is, "no". There's too much to do, it seems. Reigning, worshiping, praising, joy, peace, love, thanksgiving, no sorrow, crying or pain, etc. God Himself is the focal point of eternal life in heaven. Those in hell are simply forgotten:

"Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence" (Jeremiah 23:39).

Originally posted by vistesd
First, I want you to know that I respect serious exegesis, such as yours here , even if I disagree. 🙂

Second, I have not said there is no distinction between the faithful, such as Paul is addressing, and others—it is only the ultimate outcome of that distinction that I am arguing (the same for letting anyone “off the hook” ).

Third[/ curiosity, I usually start with NRSV first—what is your preferred translation, if you have one?

Other translations of Romans 5:17 -

"For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ." (NLT)

"For if because of one man's trespass (lapse, offense) death reigned through that one, much more surely will those who receive [God's] overflowing grace (unmerited favor) and the free gift of righteousness [putting them into right standing with Himself] reign as kings in life through the one Man Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One)." (AMP)

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." (NIV)

"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." (KJV)

"If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ." (ESV)

"If, because of the one man’s trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." (NRSV)

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There are two interesting points to me here: (1) “are receiving” may be closer to the Greek; and (2) since there is no punctuation in the original Greek, I wonder what happens to the sense of this if the comma after “receiving” is moved to after “life”... It seems not at all clear in the Greek whether “in life” refers to “are receiving” or “shall reign.”

Good eye, BTW!

Some translations don't use any punctuation for that passage, and without punctuation it is plausible that both 'receiving/laying hold of' and 'shall reign' are referred to by 'in life'. Either way, what's clear is that it's a good thing to 'recieve/lay hold of' Jesus Christ. 🙂

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In any event, “receiving” here can apparently be taken either in an active or a passive sense: “The word [lambano] has two main senses, one (more active) take; the other (more passive) receive.” (Liddel-Scott Greek-English Lexicon—“LSJ”.) Not too hard to guess where each of is going to come down on that one... 🙂 Nevertheless, I missed that... 😳

Actually, I like both of them. To 'take' or 'lay hold of' is quite accurate as well. Very, very good eye... (The manifold richness of God's word still astonishes me.)

The alternate version 'lay hold of' or 'take' reminds me of Paul's admonishment to be bold in one's trust of God and 'lay hold of' our rights in His kingdom, given to us through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses" (1 Timothy 6:12).

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:16).

"According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: in whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him" (Ephesians 3:11-12).

"And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world" (1 John 4:16-17).

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh" (Hebrews 10:19-20).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Seventh, although I have not gotten to Colossians yet, the text you cite seems clear that Paul is speaking at that point to them. But I don’t think (yet) that can be taken as conclusive for the larger picture.

For our subject matter (election and damnation) I believe this passage is conclusive:

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; ...[text shortened]... online I use biblegateway. That's where I find the YLT among others.[/b]

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:13-15).

I seem to remember you saying once that it is a scripturally untenable view, and unfit for doctrine... Other than a preconceived notion of what God's agape love should entail, how can one possibly entertain the hope that obedience to the Son of God isn't ultimately necessary for salvation? ...Biblically speaking.

>> Revelation 20:13 And yielded the sea those dead in it, and the death and Hades yielded the dead in them, and were judged/decided/determined each/every according to the deeds/actions/works of them (or: “so the same way” ).

First, you’ll notice that my rendering of this verse from the Greek does not change much, except for the word “man” which dos not occur there.

Second, you are correct that I view it untenable that a God who is agape, and who has the power to save, would condemn people to eternal torment—whether my understanding of agape is preconceived or not. So that eventually, there would be a “plucking out,” as you put it. However, that plucking out would occur when all sinfulness has been purged. This goes back to the understanding of wheat/tares, etc. as not representing whole persons (as well as salvation as healing).

If my understanding of agape as it pertains to God’s nature is incorrect, then I cannot say that your view is untenable—Biblically speaking. 🙂 I may disagree with you, but I do not say that your argument is foolish. As far as being “unfit for doctrine”—did I say that? On the one hand, the church has not declared either view to be doctrinally necessary; and on the other hand, doctrine is what the church declares to be true (or, in a larger sense, is true), whether it seems “fit” or not.

I see the divine agape as being both universal and unconditional. Universal in the sense that it is extended to and embraces all; unconditional in the sense that, in the words of St. Isaac the Syrian, it cannot be “defeated by the wickedness of human beings.” God’s agape is not coercive, but relentlessly drawing; and I do not see death as a bar to that. Whether or not a person can resist eternally I hesitate to answer for sure...

Third, although verse 20:10 indicates that the devil, the beast and the false prophet will be tormented “to the ages of the ages” (YLT), there is no such indication for human beings specifically. [I will note that some universalists, including Origen whose version—at least some aspects of it—was condemned by the church, hold that the openness of aionas ton aionon leaves open the possibility of even their eventual redemption. But that is a whole other issue.]

Fourth, I take God as agape and God as a consuming fire to refer to the same thing. This may come party from my understanding of God as all-in-all. Fire, along with wind/breath and water is one of the pre-eminent symbols for pneuma. When is the fire the fire of spirit, and when is it not? (Excluding references to a simple fire, like a campfire.)

For example:

>> NRS Matthew 3:10 Even now the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the granary; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire." (Also Luke 3:16-17)

Are there two kinds of fire here, or only one?

Or:

>> NRS Mark 9:49 "For everyone will be salted with fire. 50 Salt is good; but if salt has lost its saltiness, how can you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."

Or:

>> NRS Luke 12:39 "But know this: if the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour." 41 Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for everyone?" 42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and prudent manager whom his master will put in charge of his slaves, to give them their allowance of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put that one in charge of all his possessions. 45 But if that slave says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and if he begins to beat the other slaves, men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour that he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and put him with the unfaithful. 47 That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded. 49 "I came to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and what stress I am under until it is completed!”

BTW, I take in here that “cut into pieces” is hyperbole for “a severe beating.”

Or:

>> NRS 1st Corinthians 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

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Okay, I won’t throw out all the “fire” references (I have listed them, and intend as a project to go through them all when I get a chance). These struck me as particularly interesting.

My question is, what scripture gives conclusive support to the universalist's belief that God will eventually pluck them out of the fire?

Thus far, I don’t think there is a “smoking gun” scriptural reference that is in that sense “conclusive”. Otherwise, the church long ago would’ve declared a doctrinal (dogmatic) position. Further, I don’t think that the Biblical writers necessarily speak univocally on this issue. The only scriptural reference that you have cited thus far that seems like a “smoking gun” to me is the one about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

My whole argument is really that, if my understanding of God as agape and as all-in-all is correct, then—ultimately—God saves (whether one views salvation juridically or as healing, or as some combination); excluding the possibility, of course, that God desires to save all, but ultimately fails. Christologically, I place more weight on the incarnation in all this (again, in line with the Eastern churches) than some “theology of the cross” folks seem to.

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...how can one possibly entertain the hope that obedience to the Son of God isn't ultimately necessary for salvation?

I’m unsure what you mean. I know the line about “Lord, Lord” versus “do what I tell you”; and the parable of the house built on sand. But obedience was not a requisite for the salvific act of the incarnation. “While we were still sinners....”

And—Matthew 9: 10 And as he sat at dinner in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and were sitting with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" 12 But when he heard this, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners."

And on the cross, Jesus said, “Father, forgive them for they don’t know what they are doing.” (Did they know? Are they forgiven?)

How perfect and complete does your obedience have to be in order for you to be saved? What if someone obeys all of Christ’s ethical teachings, but never heard of him? Are you following Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s The Cost of Discipleship here? Are you talking, not about faith versus works, but faith perfected by works?

You have linked holiness with obedience before, if I recall rightly—while I have linked it with agape. If your child disobeys, do you punish them out of (1) a sense of justice; (2) a sense of anger, or a desire for revenge; or (3) for their own ultimate benefit? We’re adults, but do we always “know what we are doing”?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Other translations of Romans 5:17 -

"For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ." (NLT)

"For if because of one man's trespass (lapse, offense) death ...[text shortened]... hat is to say, his flesh" (Hebrews 10:19-20).

I like the “boldness”! As you know, I don’t think that faith (in the Biblical sense) entails epistemological certainty. Boldness, however... Abraham was certainly bold before his God; and St. Theresa of Avila before hers (just two examples that came quickly to mind).

Thanks for that. Made my day.

Originally posted by vistesd
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:13-15).
mate benefit? We’re adults, but do we always “know what we are doing”?

"That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded. 49 "I came to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and what stress I am under until it is completed!”

NRS 1st Corinthians 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire"
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Your quotes from scripture have brought something to my attention which I hadn't grasped before:

In many places throughout the NT the judgment accorded to unbelievers is eternal separation from God / full destruction (apollumi). In other places, the Lord mentions that all those who believe in Him will not be judged: "Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life" (John 5:24). Nevertheless, Paul says (of believers), "we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body" (2 Corinthians 5:10). What are Christians judged for, if they are not to be judged for their sins? What could be the meaning of this?

Paul continues: "Because we understand our fearful responsibility to the Lord, we work hard to persuade others. God knows we are sincere, and I hope you know this, too" (2 Corinthians 5:11). Christian's are judged for how sincerely they work to persuade others of the Good News: "For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:19-21).

The Message is an urgent, "Come back to God!" Why? Because God is going to judge us for what we have done in our earthly bodies. Even believers do not escape His judgment (although they are not destroyed). The fire tests all men, but only the foundation laid by Christ (along with good works built on that foundation) will survive. Everything else will be consumed. The believer will be saved, 'but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames' (v.15).

So how are Christian's judged? According to how well they represented Christ and His message to the world. Therefore, Christ's message must have great ramifications for all the world. What are those ramifications? It is obvious: only the foundation laid by Christ will survive the fire of God's judgment. All other foundations will be consumed. Therefore, if a man has not believed in Jesus Christ in the earthly body and died in his sins, he will be utterly consumed by the fire of God's judgment.

If it were otherwise, if faith were not necessary, then what is the purpose of sharing Christ's message, and why are Christian's so severely dealt with for failure to share Christ's message effectively or sincerely?

All are tried by fire, but only believers escape being utterly consumed (apollumi).

(More later...)