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The OP is about God sends God.
The Bible says that God SENT His Son.
"God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin ..." (See Romans 8:3)
"But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, ..." (See Gal. 4:4)
"And He who sent Me is with Me; ..." (John 8:29)
"Then Jesus said to them ... as the Father has sent Me ..." (See John 20:21)
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Yet the Son of God Whom the Father sent is the God Creator who is praised in Psalm 102.
" But of the Son, Your throne of God, is forever and ever, ... And, You in the beginning, Lord,, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands,
They will perish, but You remain perpetually, and they all will become old like a garment, And like a mangle You will roll them up; like a garment they will also be changed; but You are the same, and Your years will not fail. " (Hebrews 1:8a,10-12)
The writer of Hebrews is quoting from Psalm 102 a praise to Jehovah God, including that He is the eternal Creator.
"I said, My God, Do not take me away in the middle of my days; Your years are throughout all generations.
Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
They will perish, but You endure; Indeed all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them, and the will be changed.
But You are the same, And Your years are without end." (Psalm 102:24-27)
The God Who laid the foundation of the earth is the Son SENT in the New Testament. So God Sends God.
Psalm 102 is all about Jehovah God - vs.1,2,10,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28.
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Originally posted by @sonshipMove on?!
As you can see Divegeester still doesn't get it.
Too bad folksy talk doesn't substitute for a sound effective rebuttal.
There is nothing in [b]Zechariah 2:3 about two angels, one speaking to the other OR one speaking for God, which rescues from Jehovah being both the declaring one and the one who has been sent.
So until I see either Dive or Gh ...[text shortened]... e, let's move on to God being triune in Psalm 102 when compared to Hebrews 1:8-11.[/b]
But you still haven't properly digested, 'the angel who spoke with me...' Are you really going to fudge that? I thought it wasn't about ego? - And even then you haven't dealt with:
[In vs8] The sender is Jehovah, and the person sent is not the prophet, but the angel of the Lord....The speaker is still the angel of the Lord...in v. 11. By the execution of this judgment Israel would learn that Jehovah had sent His angel, namely to execute upon the heathen His saving purposes for Israel....2:10-11 The daughter Zion is to rejoice at this sending of the angel of the Lord. V. 10. "Exult and rejoice, O daughter Zion: for, behold, I come, and dwell in the midst of thee, is the saying of Jehovah. V. 11...The Lord comes to her in His angel, in whom are His name (Ex 23:21), and His face (Ex 33:14), i.e., the angel of His face (Isa 63:9)..
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sprovOriginally posted by @sonshipAttempted to disprove.
No one to my recollection, has ever refuted this observation. In [b]Zechariah 2:8-11 shows Jehovah God is both the Sender and the One Sent.
Therefore it is a clear window into the triune nature of God in the Old Testament.
Let's see if anyone will attempt to disprove this now. (Details below)[/b]
Succeeded.
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
[b]Move on?!
But you still haven't properly digested, 'the angel who spoke with me...' Are you really going to fudge that? I thought it wasn't about ego? - And even then you haven't dealt with:
[In vs8] The sender is Jehovah, and the person sent is not the prophet, but the angel of the Lord....The speaker is still the angel of the Lord...in v. 11.
But you still haven't properly digested, 'the angel who spoke with me...' Are you really going to fudge that? I thought it wasn't about ego? - And even then you haven't dealt with:
How does "the angel who spoke with me" make any difference to the declaring Jehovah also being the sent Jehovah?
[In vs8] The sender is Jehovah, and the person sent is not the prophet, but the angel of the Lord
The sender is Jehovah.
The One sent is not the prophet.
What are characteristics of the SENT ONE?
He has a mighty hand to route the enemies of Israel.
Is this a typical angel to whom such might is ascribed?
This hand waving one is Jehovah God Himself:
"For I am now waving My hand over them, and they will be plunder for those who served them, ..." (v.9)
This One is also the One who will dwell in the midst of Israel as the speaking continues.
" ... for now I am coming and I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah." (v.10)
The hand waver is Jehovah.
The One coming to dwell in their midst is Jehovah.
When the people who have benefited from the mighty divine hand and the mighty divine dwelling join themselves to Jehovah, they will be come the people of the One speaking, Jehovah -
"And many nations will join themselves to Jehovah in that day and will become My people; and I will dwell in your midst, ...
Is Ghost arguing that a typical angel is saying that he will come and dwell in the midst of Israel and that he, an angelic creature, will have as the Isrealites "My people" ?
"My people" are God's people.
And on becoming God's people they also will know that Jehovah has sent the people possessor who says "My people".
"And many nations will join themselves to JEHOVAH in that day and will become MY people, and I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you." (v.11)
How is it possible that God is speaking SO highly of a typical angel? And this just before verse 12.
"And Jehovah will inherit Judah as His portion upon the holy land, and He will again choose Jerusalem." [v.12)
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Are you trying to say that in the midst of the prediction of Jehovah God coming to dwell in the midst of Israel that along side of that a typical angel from heaven announces that he too will dwell in the midst of God's people?
There are in these verses a sent one and a sender. Both are Jehovah God.
Your commentator is ascribing too much authority to a typical angel of God by saying this -
By the execution of this judgment Israel would learn that Jehovah had sent His angel, namely to execute upon the heathen His saving purposes for Israel....2:10-11
The Angel that they will know God has sent is Jehovah God.
He is now coming to dwell in their midst and declares Himself to be Jehovah.
" ... for now I am coming and I will dwell in your midst, DECLARES ... JEHOVAH.
It is Jehovah God Who will be the wall of fire around and the glory in the midst (v.5)
"For I will be her wall of fire round about, DECLARES JEHOVAH, and I will be the glory within her." (v.5)
The daughter Zion is to rejoice at this sending of the angel of the Lord. V. 10. "Exult and rejoice, O daughter Zion: for, behold, I come, and dwell in the midst of thee, is the saying of Jehovah.
The commentator has arbitrarily changed the wording to "is the saying of Jehovah". This he has done to dull the force of the fact that Jehovah God is the One speaking.
" Give a ringing shout and rejoicem O daughter of Zion, for now I am coming, and I will dwell in your midst, DECLARES JEHOVAH." (v.10)
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V. 11...The Lord comes to her in His angel,
But the angel is no typical sent one, no typical messenger of God. The sent messenger is God Himself.
in whom are His name (Ex 23:21), and His face (Ex 33:14), i.e., the angel of His face (Isa 63:9)..
Zechariah has as one of its points that Jehovah God is the coming One who is pierced, wounded by His own people, by the tribes of Israel. They will recognize that it is God whom they have persecuted.
"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplicationsl
and they will look upon Me, whom they have pierced, and they will mourn over Him with the wailing as for an only son and cry bitterly over Him with bitter crying as for a firstborn son." (Zech. 12:10)
The Angel of Jehovah is used interchangeably with God in 14:8.
"In that day Jehovah will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem and he who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of Jehovah before them." (14:6)
Did you get that Ghost?
Like God, like the Angel of Jehovah.
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Originally posted by @sonshipI'll let you ponder on it sonship and we can pick it up tomorrow,
V. 11...The Lord comes to her in His angel,
But the angel is no typical sent one, no typical messenger of God. The sent messenger is God Himself.
in whom are His name (Ex 23:21), and His face (Ex 33:14), i.e., the angel of His face (Isa 63:9)..
Zechariah has as one of its points that Jehovah God is the comi ...[text shortened]... ] [/quote]
Did you get that Ghost?
Like [b]God, like the Angel of Jehovah. [/b]
Remember, no ego.
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Originally posted by @sonshipOkay, take a moment. Are you certain you are not confusing the words of the prophet with the words of Jehovah? Are you certain you are not ignoring standard Hebrew discourse structures?
Are you trying to say that in the midst of the prediction of Jehovah God coming to dwell in the midst of Israel that along side of that a typical angel from heaven announces that he too will dwell in the midst of God's people?
There are in these verses a sent one and a sender. Both are Jehovah God.
Your commentator is ascribing too much authority to ...[text shortened]... on, for now I am coming, and I will dwell in your midst, DECLARES JEHOVAH." (v.10) [/quote][/b]
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeI do not read or write Hebrew.
Okay, take a moment. Are you certain you are not confusing the words of the prophet with the words of Jehovah? Are you certain you are not ignoring standard Hebrew discourse structures?
My respect goes to anyone who has that skill.
But the case is hard to make that Jehovah God is not in both roles of Speaker Sender and Speaker Sent one in that particular passage.
If I take verse 11 for instance, and think everything from the word "My" is spoken by either the angel or the prophet, it is peculiarly out of custom for the exaltation of a typical servant of God.
"And many nations will join themselves to Jehovah in that day.
and will be My [the typical angel's or the prophet's ] people; and I [the typical angel or prophet] will dwell in your midst; and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me [the typical angel or prophet] to you."
I think this is method of interpretation assigns undue prominence to the deputy messenger.
This is more likely to me.
"And many nations will join themselves to Jehovah in that day and will become My [Jehovah's] people, and I [Jehovah] will dwell in your midst, and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me [Jehovah ] to you. "
That would be consistent with an aspect of the book of Zechariah - "like God, like the Angel of Jehovah" (12:8)
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.The Lord comes to her in His angel, in whom are His name (Ex 23:21), and His face (Ex 33:14), i.e., the angel of His face (Isa 63:9)..
I don't disagree with this final statement. But the Angel of Jehovah is Jehovah. This is God going forth.
Exodus 23:20-2321
I am now sending an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
Yet everywhere else in Exodus from this point it says that God commanded and that God led them to the Good Land.
"Be careful before Him, and listen to His voice; do not rebel against Him, for He will not pardon your transgression, for My name is in Him."
No typical angel in the Bible is involved in forgiving of anyone's sins. And henceforth in Exodus, I think it always, when God is speaking, that it is Jehovah God commanding.
The Angel of Jehovah is Jehovah going forth from Jehovah.
"But if you will indeed listen to His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to you adversaries."
Again this is no typical angelic messenger. From Exodus 23 we will see that Jehovah God is commanding and speaking.
"For My Angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, and I will cut them off."
I think also it should not be taken for granted that God says that His name is in this Angel. For His name to be in Him, I think, means that His being and His Person is in Him.
This is God sending God. His Angel here is also His presence -
[q] Exodus 33:14[/b]
"And He said, My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest."
We will examine this portion more latter perhaps, Exodus 33.
Isaiah 63:9
In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the Angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them, And He bore them up and carried them all the days of old."
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Originally posted by @sonship'If' it transpired that God did 'not' send God and you were incorrect in your trinitarian beliefs, would this diminish God in your eyes?.The Lord comes to her in His angel, in whom are His name (Ex 23:21), and His face (Ex 33:14), i.e., the angel of His face (Isa 63:9)..
I don't disagree with this final statement. But the Angel of Jehovah is Jehovah. This is God going forth.
[b]Exodus 23:20-2321I am now sending an Angel before you to keep you in the ...[text shortened]... mercy He redeemed them, And He bore them up and carried them all the days of old."[/b]
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
'If' it transpired that God did 'not' send God and you were incorrect in your trinitarian beliefs, would this diminish God in your eyes?
Let me say to begin with that the revelation of the three-oneness of God is not solely dependent upon that passage in Zechariah.
It is an added confirmation to many other places in the word of God in which the mysterious nature of God is revealed.
But however God appears in "my eyes" He is what He is.
Whether diminished or augmented "in my eyes" God is what God is.
"My eyes" don't change that one way or another.
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If one does not see the dispensing of God through God being Father - Son - Holy Spirit, his understanding of God's economy is likely to be weak in my opinion.
God's economy means God's way of managing His household. It is His operation. It is His eternal purpose.
What God is in His three-oneness cannot be separated from His plan to dispense Himself into man.