16 Dec 06
Originally posted by ahosyneyThat's right - it's the rejection of all that came before.
That is why I asked you what you know about the differences.
Wahhabism is a movement, not like Shea, they are Suna just like me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi
Jahiliyya : what is this? I don't know Islamic Group with this name. Actually Jahiliyya is the name of the period of time before Islam, if you mean this then of cource I reject it.
Why would someone say 'I am Wahhabi' rather than 'I am Suna'?
Also, if there is a rejection of all that came before, why would you say that you accept the Gospel of Jesus? And if you do, then which of the Gospels do you take to be the correct (as in 'no mistakes'😉 one?
16 Dec 06
Originally posted by snowinscotlandI think you need to do some reading, because your information is not accurate. I'm sorry to say that but that is the truth.
That's right - it's the rejection of all that came before.
Why would someone say 'I am Wahhabi' rather than 'I am Suna'?
Also, if there is a rejection of all that came before, why would you say that you accept the Gospel of Jesus? And if you do, then which of the Gospels do you take to be the correct (as in 'no mistakes'😉 one?
As I said before before there is only one Islam.
Why would someone say 'I am Wahhabi' rather than 'I am Suna'?
No one today say I'm Wahhabi. If you read the link I gave you you will know that. Wahhabi is a Islamic movement , that ruled in Sudia Arebia in a specific period of time. And they were Suna. Is this clear.
Also, if there is a rejection of all that came before, why would you say that you accept the Gospel of Jesus? And if you do, then which of the Gospels do you take to be the correct (as in 'no mistakes'😉 one?
Again you need to know what you are talking about. Jahillya is the period of time before Islam when idolatry was the main religion of Arabs. Do you understand that? So we reject all idolatry forms. Jesus didn't came with idolatry, he came with the same message. So I don't reject him. What we reject idolatry added to his message be Christians. Christianity is not made by Jesus. And he never called his follower Christians. Did I made myself clear?
16 Dec 06
Originally posted by ahosyneyWould you perfer the term "Salafism"?
I think you need to do some reading, because your information is not accurate. I'm sorry to say that but that is the truth.
As I said before before there is only one Islam.
[b]Why would someone say 'I am Wahhabi' rather than 'I am Suna'?
No one today say I'm Wahhabi. If you read the link I gave you you will know that. Wahhabi is a Islamic move ...[text shortened]... t made by Jesus. And he never called his follower Christians. Did I made myself clear?[/b]
And when you say one Islam, do you mean all Muslims believe the same?
I'm struggling to understand you - are there no sects within Islamic belief?
Jahillya is the period of time before Islam - ie before the Quran was written?
16 Dec 06
2 edits
Originally posted by snowinscotlandWould you perfer the term "Salafism"?
Would you perfer the term "Salafism"?
And when you say one Islam, do you mean all Muslims believe the same?
I'm struggling to understand you - are there no sects within Islamic belief?
Jahillya is the period of time before Islam - ie before the Quran was written?
Suna , Salafism , is the same. You don't belive me do some reading.
Again Wahabbism is a movment not another section of Islam, call them Suna, call them Salafism, names doesn't make difference, and we don't use them. We are Muslims.
And when you say one Islam, do you mean all Muslims believe the same?
Yes all Muslims belive the same.
I'm struggling to understand you - are there no sects within Islamic belief?
You have no information about what you are talking about.
The Majority of Muslims are Suna (90% ). They are all beliving the same thing.
Suna = What the prophet did or say. So Suna are simply Muslims follow directly what the prophet said or did. Which mean other groups don't follow what the prophet said or did, which doesn't make them Muslims. Even though the belive in one GOD, and belive that Quran is the word of GOD, and worship GOD the same way, so what is your question.
What other sections you are talking about, and I can tell you what is their problem.
Give me the name of the Group that you want to know and I can tell if they are Muslims or not?
Jahillya is the period of time before Islam - ie before the Quran was written?
The word (Jahillya = Ignorance) so it is the period of Ignorance. I don't know what is not clear, it is the peroid in Araibia when they worship several GODs. I don't know how I can be more clear. They didn't worship GOD at all to compare it with anything.
Edit: I want to help you to understand but I really don't want to know what you want to know?
16 Dec 06
Originally posted by ahosyneyShouting at a problem does not make it go away. Explaining it does.
[b]Would you perfer the term "Salafism"?
Suna , Salafism , is the same. You don't belive me do some reading.
Again Wahabbism is a movment not another section of Islam, call them Suna, call them Salafism, names doesn't make difference, and we don't use them. We are Muslims.
And when you say one Islam, do you mean all Muslims believe the same? ...[text shortened]... ant to help you to understand but I really don't want to know what you want to know?
1) 90% of Muslims believe the same thing. Yes? That is what you said.
That means that 10% believe something different. Yes? These different beliefs are called sects. Do you follow that?
2) Simple question. Try to answer just the question. When did Jahillya end? Was it when the Quran was written?
17 Dec 06
Originally posted by snowinscotlandMy problem with you not that I don't want to explain, or there something that I want to hide. It is simply because your questions show that you don't have enough information about what you talk about.
Shouting at a problem does not make it go away. Explaining it does.
1) 90% of Muslims believe the same thing. Yes? That is what you said.
That means that 10% believe something different. Yes? These different beliefs are called sects. Do you follow that?
2) Simple question. Try to answer just the question. When did Jahillya end? Was it when the Quran was written?
1) 90% of Muslims believe the same thing. Yes? That is what you said.
That means that 10% believe something different. Yes? These different beliefs are called sects. Do you follow that?
This different beliefs are called another religion. If me and you don't belive in the same thing then we have a different religion and that is what I want to tell you. All Muslims belive the same thing. This is what early muslims agree upon. Early Muslims are the componions of the prophet who lived with him, and their next generation. Those two generations have documented every single thing in the Prophet life, and the know exactly what is Islam. If anyone don't follow that then he is not a Muslim (Even he claim that he is).
So from those who claim being Muslims 90% follow that, and those what we call Suna Muslims. Other groups don't follow that, and we don't call them Muslims but they do call themselves Muslims.
Do you follow that?
2) Simple question. Try to answer just the question. When did Jahillya end? Was it when the Quran was written?
You talk about Jahillya as if its a religion, or sect. While it is the name muslims give to the period of time of Arabic lands history before Islam, and of course it is ended by Islam. And I explained that to you before, and I told you it hans nothing to do with Jesus or any other prophet.
And I still don't get your Idea, I'm answering your Questions which are not related (or I think they are) to the subject of the thread.
17 Dec 06
Originally posted by ahosyneywe are getting there, slowly I think tho'
My problem with you not that I don't want to explain, or there something that I want to hide. It is simply because your questions show that you don't have enough information about what you talk about.
[b]1) 90% of Muslims believe the same thing. Yes? That is what you said.
That means that 10% believe something different. Yes? These different beliefs are ...[text shortened]... your Questions which are not related (or I think they are) to the subject of the thread.
The fact that there are people who call themselves Muslims but you don't, is like Christianity. There are Catholics (many shades) and others like Protestants(many shades); who both take the bible as it is but have different interpretations and 'understandings'. Each will say that the others are heretics - ie that they are not true Christians, not the true faith. These different sets of understandings are called sects. Do you understand that?
17 Dec 06
1 edit
Originally posted by snowinscotlandCan you please make your point?
we are getting there, slowly I think tho'
The fact that there are people who call themselves Muslims but you don't, is like Christianity. There are Catholics (many shades) and others like Protestants(many shades); who both take the bible as it is but have different interpretations and 'understandings'. Each will say that the others are heretics - ...[text shortened]... true faith. These different sets of understandings are called sects. Do you understand that?
Edit: Your statement is not accurate, but I need to know your point first.
17 Dec 06
Originally posted by ahosyneyWhat part of my statement is not accurate. I notice you are very fond of using phrases like that without highlighting the part you have an issue with.
Can you please make your point?
Edit: Your statement is not accurate, but I need to know your point first.
17 Dec 06
Originally posted by snowinscotlandNo, I'm not talking about what you say,
What part of my statement is not accurate. I notice you are very fond of using phrases like that without highlighting the part you have an issue with.
I'm talking about your goal from that:
What I understand from you is, you want to say:
"If the Quran or any other Book is the word of GOD then there will be no sect, and there will be different interpretations."
Am I right?,
17 Dec 06
Originally posted by ahosyneyNo. What I'm trying to say is that from any group of people you will get different ideas from the same starting point. From my background in Scotland there were (possible still are) two main polarised Christian sects. They developed from the same book - the Bible. It took some 2000 years to do so, but it happened. There are also many other sects. That is from the same starting point.
No, I'm not talking about what you say,
I'm talking about your goal from that:
What I understand from you is, you want to say:
"If the Quran or any other Book is the word of GOD then there will be no sect, and there will be different interpretations."
Am I right?,
Now look at the Gospel of Barnabas. Why did you throw that into the mix? It is clearly a fraud, so what was your point? I took it to be that you were saying that Christianity is fractured and inconsistent - is that it?
21 Dec 06
Originally posted by snowinscotlandI'm sorry, I was busy the last few days and I'm still.
Ahosyney? Why do you not respond?
So, let me get this right. You have said that 10% of Muslims are not Suna. Can I ask what they are then?
Ok , as I told you before there are some groups, you can call them sects, I don't mind. One major group is Shi'a. I think they form the majority of the 10%.
Shi'a claim they belive in Quran and they follow most of the Islamic doctrains, but they have a major problem. The did with the family of the prophet what Christians did with Jesus. The prophet Mohammed Died and left only one daughter a life , and she had 2 sons.
Shi'a belive that there 12 Imams (Leaders) comming from the children of the prophet, they gave those 12 Imams a glory more than prophets, and some of tham belive in an Idea like GOD manefested in each of the 12 Imams. So instead of having 3 in one, they have 12 in one. They are waiting for the last one of the 12 as Christians waiting for Jesus to come back again. And the story in both cases is exact. When the last Imam come he will do exactly what Jesus will do when he come back. All of this has no source from Quran and Suna. It was just an imagination of Jew man who joined Islam.
Shi'a is a long story but you can from the first glance realize they don't follow Islam. Iran and Hezboallah are example of Shea. Most Muslim scholars belive that Shea are not Muslims, I don't want to say that, but you can see that by yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27a_Islam
The remaining of the 10% are sect from Shi'a itself.
You may also hear about Sufism, you can't call it a sect, because Sufi muslims just concentrate on spritual issuse which make them away from life. But they are part of the 10%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi
I hope you I answered your question?
For why I opened this thread , I said it before. Bernabas Gospel is like any other gospel has an evidences that show it is not true, although some accepted , and some not.
Bernabas Gospel is not the only one, another one is Judas gospel, which I think is more authentic, and also rejected because it shows different facts in Christianity.
22 Dec 06
Originally posted by ahosyneyThanks for all that - it is interesting to hear it from a different point of view. As you rightly say, there are some 'books' that were not part of the Christian canon - the 'list' if you like of books that made it into the New Testament. One of these was the Gospel of Judas, another set are the gnostic gospels.
I'm sorry, I was busy the last few days and I'm still.
Ok , as I told you before there are some groups, you can call them sects, I don't mind. One major group is Shi'a. I think they form the majority of the 10%.
Shi'a claim they belive in Quran and they follow most of the Islamic doctrains, but they have a major problem. The did with the family of th ...[text shortened]... more authentic, and also rejected because it shows different facts in Christianity.
Suppose we took only one of these, say the gospel according to Luke (and note the title even says it is 'according to' ie a witness perspective). Now if there had been no others there, and Luke's writing were all we had to go from, do you think there would be any 'discrepancies'?
How many books were written by those around Mohammed?
27 Dec 06
Originally posted by snowinscotlandI'm sorry for that long delay: I was busy:
Thanks for all that - it is interesting to hear it from a different point of view. As you rightly say, there are some 'books' that were not part of the Christian canon - the 'list' if you like of books that made it into the New Testament. One of these was the Gospel of Judas, another set are the gnostic gospels.
Suppose we took only one of these, s ...[text shortened]... would be any 'discrepancies'?
How many books were written by those around Mohammed?
Suppose we took only one of these, say the gospel according to Luke (and note the title even says it is 'according to' ie a witness perspective). Now if there had been no others there, and Luke's writing were all we had to go from, do you think there would be any 'discrepancies'?
The statment "the gospel according to Luke" imply that it is written by a man. So to accept this as a word of GOD you have to show me:
1- Who is Luke?, and
2- his relation to Jesus because the Gospel is supposed to be given to Jesus, and also
3- how this Book reached us today?
I don't think there is an answer to these questions. Or some of them.
I didn't talk about the contents but each one of the 4 gospels has a different problem independant of the others.
How many books were written by those around Mohammed?
I hope to answer your question , and I hope my language help me:
There are two main source for Islamic Law:
1- Quran, and I said before there is only one Quran all Muslims belive in, including the 10% I talked about before. So you can't compare to the Gospels, because it has nothing to do with the prophet life. Allah (GOD) is the one who is speeking in Quran.
2- Suna (Hadith) , this is every thing the prophet said or did. Suna is given to us in the form Hadith. Hadith is a text range from 1 line to many pages, give something the prophet said , or something the prophet did. Each hadith is attached with something we call Isnad. Isnad is simply the history of this hadith. It lists every person who share transfereing this hadith to us,in a chain form starting from the Prophet.
According to the Isnad we can accept or reject Hadith so if you tell me that the prophet said or did something I will ask you about the Isnad, which give us the following:
1- There is no Isnad for your Hadith , so I will not accept it and no Muslim will.
2- You give me Isnad: In this case there are specific books study people who shared in transfaring hadith. So every person is known untill the time Hadith is collected, there are several studies for Isnad, because it could happen that Isnad say X tell Y that Z said, but X , Y were not alive at the same time, so there is a problem in Isnad:
a- Every person in the Isnad is trusted and authenticated, then the hadith accepted.
b- One person in the Isnad is not trusted , or the Isnad has a problem. Then the Hadith is rejected.
Hadith is collected with its Isnad in many books(6 are most important) . But hadith without Isnad doen't mean anything.
-------------------------
Hadith is not a biography of the prophet , and the Hadith is not ordered in a specific time line. So they can't be compared to Gospels.
------------------------
Some Muslims wrote books that act as biography to the prophet, it is based on Hadith too. They tried to order the events mentioned in Hadith to give a view of the prophet life. These books make use of hadith and usually refere to Hadith books. So the rules of Isnad is applied to them. Besides they are not used as a source of Islamic law.