Originally posted by vistesdI think you don't understand exactly how the Hadith is transfered. I understanded this from you answer about the Prayer.
[b]It doesn't seem that there is something you are missing here. So to start, can you tell me what a good Isnad means for you?
Basically, one in which the chain is possible (person X was really still alive when he spoke to person Y, for example; or that Z really could’ve heard the prophet say so and so); and that the chain consist of persons who are is using, or how one pours from it. The pitcher is for the water, not the other way around.[/b]
When I gave you the example of the prayer, it was intended, because Quran stress every where about the importance of the prayer, and that leaving prayer is very important thing. Although the details of the prayer is known from the Prophet's act.
So it is not that we heard someone say we should pray like that, but rather it is transfered Generations by Generation. It is a group of companions saw the prophet pray, and the prayed like him, and so the next generation who didn't see the prophet, saw his companions praying, and they did pray like them, and so on. So it is not the mater of Hearsay here.
So there are basic stuff that are well know with the same way, and no Muslim can question it.
So now lets talk about Isnad. And I will take the Hadith you asked me about before as an example ( I will translate it myself, and hope it will be good):
As I told you I found in three collections, and I will translate from the three:
1- Sunan Al Termizi, the Book of Supplications, The merit of Zekr (To Remember Allah): Hadith No. 3375:
Abo Kreb Told me that Zaid Ibn Habab said that Moawea Ibn Saleh said that Amr Ibn Kays siad that Abd Allah ibn Basr (Allah bless him) said that a man said to the prophet (peace be upon him): Oh messanger of Allah, the legislations of Islam became much for me , so tell me of something that I stick to. The prophet replayed, Keep you mouth moist by remembering Allah (Zekr)
The part in bold is the Isnad and the part in Italic is the Hadith itself. Here we have 6 reporters in the Isnad:
1- Al Termizi himself (The collector of Hadith)
2- Abo Kreb
3- Zaid Ibn Habab
4- Moawea Ibn Saleh
5- Amr Ibn Kays
6- Abd Allah ibn Basr (Prophet companion)
Abd Allah ibn Basr is one of the prophets companion. The last one of the Isnad chain should be one of the prophet companions, other wise it is called "Marfoo Hadith" which of a less degree of authintecity, and generally not accepted for laws and faith related issus. It might be accpted as general guidance if it has some morals. But this hadith is not of this type.
No as you can say reporter 6 heard from the prophet. and 5 heard from 4 and so on untill we reach reporter 1 who wrote the collection (Al Termizi in this case).
Lets assume that this hadith is not true. For this to be true then one of the 6 reporters must not be telling the truth. If any one of them is known to did transfere false hadith his hadith is rejected.
So if any of those 6 known to be a lier the hadith is rejected.
Also if reporter 4 couldn't have been heard from reporter 5 for example (for example the lived in two different places so they couldn't met), then the hadith is rejected.
If one of the 6 reported say in the Isnad that he didn't hear it directry from the person he named. ( For example if the Isnad say "I heard that 4 said .....). This is not accepted. The reporter should say that he heard it himself.
So to say that this is a good Isnad (Specially when we talk about al Bukhari and Muslim) we say that it is not a hearsay.
Most of the Hadith has several Isnads (Many reporters said it in different generations). But sometimes it has only one way. Like this hadith, in the Termizi.
2- Now lets look about the other 2 collections:
In Sunan Ibn Maga, The book of Manars, The merit of Zekr: Hadith No. 3793:
Abo Kreb Told me in accordance to Zaid Ibn Habab said that Moawea Ibn Saleh said that Amr Ibn Kays Al Kendy siad that Abd Allah ibn Basr said that an arabian man(Bedouin) said to prophet peace be upon him, the legislations in Islam became much for me , so tell me of one of them that I stick to. The prophet said, Keep you mouth moist by remembering Allah (Zekr)
As you can see it has the same Isnad, with a minor change in the text itself (I'm not sure of that, but could be accpted if it doesn't give a different meaning, I will check that).
1- Ibn Maga himself (The collector of Hadith)
2- Abo Kreb
3- Zaid Ibn Habab
4- Moawea Ibn Saleh
5- Amr Ibn Kays
6- Abd Allah ibn Basr (Prophet companion)
So the same hadith is found in two collections with the same Isnad. So what you if you accepted one you will accept the other.
3- In the third collection: Musnad Ahmed: In this collection the hadith is found twice with two differnt Isnads:
a- No. 17245: The Hadith of "Abd Allah Ibn Basr Al Mazni"
Abd Allah Told Me, that My Father told me, according to Abd Al Rahman Ibn Mahdy that Moawea Ibn Saleh said that Amr Ibn Kays
Siad: I heard Abd Allah Ibn Basr say: Two Arabians (Bedouins) came to the prophet, one of them asked: Oh the messanger of Allah, who is the best person (This translation is not accurate but it is close)? The prophet replayed: The one with long age and good deed. And the other asked: the legislations in Islam became much for me , so order me with something to stick to?. The prophet said, Keep you mouth moist by remembering Allah (Zekr)
Here the Isnad is as follows:
1- Imam Ahmed (The collector of Hadith)
2- Abd Allah (Who is Abd Allah and his father is known in the book itself, I just translate as is)
3- His Father
4- Abd Al Rahman Ibn Mahdy
5- Moawea Ibn Saleh
6- Amr Ibn Kays
7- Abd Allah ibn Basr (Prophet companion)
As you can see this Isnad share the first three reporters with the first one. And the text two about two questions not one.
b- Now the last one will be:
No. 17245: The Hadith of "Abd Allah Ibn Basr Al Mazni":
Abd Allah Told Me, that My Father told me, according to Ali Ibn Ayash according to Hassan Ibn Noah, said that Amr Ibn Kays
Siad that Abd Allah Ibn Basr said: Two Arabians (Bedouins) came to the prophet, one of them asked: Oh Mohammed, who is the best person (This translation is not accurate but it is close)? The prophet replayed: The one with long age and good deed. And the other asked: the legislations in Islam became much for us , so what is the thing that we sticl to and include everything?(The arabic version is not clear for me, I translated this question as much as I can) The prophet said, Keep you mouth moist by remembering Allah (Zekr)
So the new Isnad is:
1- Imam Ahmed (The collector of Hadith)
2- Abd Allah (Who is Abd Allah and his father is known in the book itself, I just translate as is)
3- His Father
4- Ali Ibn Ayash
5- Hassan Ibn Noah
6- Amr Ibn Kays
7- Abd Allah ibn Basr (Prophet companion)
So as you can see this one share the first two and the last two with the previous one.
Now we have three continous Isnads for this Hadith, for this hadith to be Hearsay or not true, only two names of the 3 Isnads could be the source. Either Amr Ibn Kays of the companion Abd Allah Ibn Basr. I will not of course Judge the two now to tell you.
But now imagin that we have two more Isnads for this Hadith. I think the list of names that could be involved in lying on the prophet will to cause this hearsay could be detected. As you can see I didn't check the names themselves yet or the history of each reporter.
Given this very long Example, could you tell me other source of hearsay in this Hadith.
I hope I was not long for you. I think this might be useful for any one search about the credibility of Islamic books.
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Again, my target from this all not to force you to accept a special scholar as an idole or mediator between you and Allah, it is just to make it more clear so when you judge a specific Hadith you know how the story really goes. But you have the right to review everything yourself.
Also human conscience and thinking is not enough in this case, and should not contradict with what Allah wants from you if it is proven to you that it is really what he wants. That what is all about , submission.
To make my idea clear, in Muslim countries (or it least where Islam is still followed), for a woman to uncover her hear, or the man to walk without decent clothes is againest the morals of Islam. (It is common that only the woman should cover herself in Islam, but actually also man should cover his body as well, but what he should cover is different) But in other non-Islamic countires it is not. So in what morals you will Judge these teachings. Will you say they violates your moral conscience as will.
I enjoyed you visit, please come again 🙂🙂
Originally posted by ahosyneyThank you; I can't look at this right now, but I promise I will! I am enjoying learning, and I am glad that you allow me to do that by making arguments!
I think you don't understand exactly how the Hadith is transfered. I understanded this from you answer about the Prayer.
When I gave you the example of the prayer, it was intended, because Quran stress every where about the importance of the prayer, and that leaving prayer is very important thing. Although the details of the prayer is known from the Pro ...[text shortened]... es your moral conscience as will.
I enjoyed you visit, please come again 🙂🙂
Be well, my friend
The hadith are arguably a more dangerous source of devotion than the Koran. They are regularly used to justify the slaughter of infidels and have done little, if any, good for the world.
"a day and a night fighting on the frontier is better than a month of fasting"
"paradise is in the shadow of swords"
"A single endeavour of fighting in Allah's cause in the forenoon or the afternoon is better than the world"
"The martyr who, on seing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again"
I would like to share more Hadith so some of you might find something they search for:
The first Hadith is talking about what a man can do to make a good deed after his death:
Sahih Muslim , the book of The Book of Bequests (Kitab Al-Wasiyya)
Chapter 4: WHAT REWARD MAN GETS AFTER HIS DEATH:
Book 013, Number 4005:
Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: When a man dies, his acts come to an end, but three, recurring charity, or knowledge (by which people) benefit, or a pious son, who prays for him (for the deceased).
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/013.smt.html#013,4005
Three things that will help a man after his death:
1- Recurring Charity.
2- Knowledge and Scientific contriputions that people benefit from.
3- A good son who prays for him
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Purification is important of every Muslim, the good Muslim will be clean and pure. A muslim should wash before prayers , a practice which called "Wodo". Wodo is a word means something to light or shine. In the following set of Hadith I will show the merits of Wodo,
Sahih Muslim, the Book of Purification, Chapter 4: THE MERIT OF WODO AND THAT OF PRAYER AFTER IT
Book 002, Number 0438:
Humran. the freed slave of 'Uthman. said: I heard from 'Uthman b. 'Affan and he was in the courtyard of the mosque, when the Mu'adhdhin (announcer of the prayer) came to him at the time of afternoon prayer. So the ('Uthman) called for the ablution water and performed ablution and then said: By Allah, I am narrating to you a hadith. If there were not a verse in the Book of Allah, I would have never narrated it to you. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say: If a Muslim performs ablution and does it well and offers prayer, all his (sins) daring the period from one prayer to another would be pardoned by Allah.
Book 002, Number 0444:
Humran b. Abin reported: I used to fetch water for 'Uthman for his purification. Never was there a day that he did not take a bath with a small quantity of water. And Uthman said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) at the time of our returning from our prayer told us (certain things pertaining to purification). Mis'ar said: I find that it was afternoon prayer. He said: I do not know whether I should tell you a thing or keep quiet. We said: Messenger of Allah, tell us if it is good and if it is otherwise, Allah and His Apostle know better. Upon this he said: A Muslim who purifies (himself) and completes purification as enjoined upon him by Allah and then offers the prayers, that will be expiatious (of his sins he committed) between these (prayers).
Book 002, Number 0445:
Jami' b. Shaddad reported: I heard Humran b. Aban narrate to Abu Burda in this very mosque during the governorship of Bishr that 'Uthman b. Alfan said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: He who completed ablution as Allah, the Exalted, enjoined upon him, his obligatory prayers would be explatious (for his minor sins that he would commit) during (the interval) between them. This hadith is transmitted by Ibn Mu'adh, and in the hadith narrated by Ghundar, the words" during the governorship of Bishr" are omitted and there is no mention of the obligatory prayers.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/002.smt.html
So Wodo (ablution) is not only required before prayer, but it is a method to forgive minor sins. Sins' that you don't know about if there could be any.
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Sahih Muslim , The Book of Virtue, Good Manners and Joining of the Ties of Relationship (Kitab Al-Birr was-Salat-I-wa'l-Adab) ,
Chapter 10: MERIT OF LOVE FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH
Book 032, Number 6225:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Verily. Allah would say on the Day of Resurrection: Where are those who have mutual love for My Glory's sake? Today I shall shelter them in My shadow when there is no other shadow but the shadow of Mine.
Chapter 11: MERIT OF VISITING THE SICK
Book 032, Number 6227:
Abu Rabi' reported directly from Allah's Apostle (may peace upon him) as saying: The one who visits the sick is in fact like one who is in the fruit garden of Paradise so long as he does not return.
Book 032, Number 6229:
Thauban reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: Verily, when a Muslim visits his brother in Islam he is supposed to remain in the fruit garden of Paradise until he returns.
Book 032, Number 6230:
Thauban, the freed slave of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who visits the sick is supposed to remain in the fruit garden of Paradise. It was said: Allah's Messenger, what is this Khurfat-ul-jannah? He said: It is a place abounding in fruits.
Chapter 12: WHENEVER A BELIEVER FALLS SICK OR IS STRICKEN WITH GRIEF OR SOMETHING LIKE IT, THERE IS A REWARD FOR HIM EVEN IF IT IS PRICKING OF A THORN
Book 032, Number 6235:
'Abdullah reported: I visited Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as he was running high temperature. I touched his body with my bard and said to him: Allah's Messenger, you are running high temperature, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Yes, it is so. I comparatively have a more severe fever than any one of you. I said: Is it because there is a double reward in store for you? Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Yes, it is so. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) again said: When a Muslim falls ill, his compensation is that his minor sins are obliterated just as leaves tall (in autumn). In the hadith transmitted on the authority of Zubair there is (no mention of these words):" I touched his body with my hands."
Book 032, Number 6237:
Aswad reported that some young men from the Quraish visited 'A'isha as she was in Mina and they were laughing. She said: What makes you laugh? They said: Such and such person stumbled against the rope of the tent and he was about to break his neck or lose his eyes. She said: Don't laugh for I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: If a Muslim runs a thorn or (gets into trouble) severe than this, there is assured for him (a higher) rank and his sins are obliterated.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/032.smt.html
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Originally posted by ahosyneyI promised you one last response a long time ago. Thanks for your patience...
I think you don't understand exactly how the Hadith is transfered. I understanded this from you answer about the Prayer.
When I gave you the example of the prayer, it was intended, because Quran stress every where about the importance of the prayer, and that leaving prayer is very important thing. Although the details of the prayer is known from the Pro es your moral conscience as will.
I enjoyed you visit, please come again 🙂🙂
Lets assume that this hadith is not true. For this to be true then one of the 6 reporters must not be telling the truth. If any one of them is known to did transfer false hadith his hadith is rejected.
There are really a number of possibilities, for example:
(1) One of the reporters could be lying, but is believed by the recipients of that report because they believe him to honest.
(2) One of the (earlier) reporters could have remembered the report he received incorrectly, and the incorrect version is the one that is subsequently transmitted.
(3) The first reporter could have simply heard only part of the conversation of the Prophet. I mentioned this example in a prior post—
“ ‘They told ‘A’isha that Abu Hurayra was asserting that the Messenger of God said: “Three things bring bad luck: house, woman, and horse.” ‘A’isha responded: “Abu Hurayra learned his lessons very badly. He came into our house when the Prophet was in the middle of a sentence. He only heard the end of it. What the Prophet said was: ‘May Allah refute the Jews; they say three things bring bad luck, house, woman, and horse.”’ [quoted from Imam Zarkashi, ibid.]
So if any of those 6 known to be a liar the hadith is rejected.
The key words here are “known to be...” I noted this possibility for hadith in the collections in my “First Case” on page 3.
Given this very long Example, could you tell me other source of hearsay in this Hadith.
Technically, it is all hearsay: “I heard A who heard B who heard the Prophet say...” Or: “Abd Allah Told Me, that My Father told me, according to Abd Al Rahman Ibn Mahdy that Moawea Ibn Saleh said that Amr Ibn Kays Siad: I heard Abd Allah Ibn Basr say...”
The question, in any given case, is not (given the plausibility of the isnad) whether it was hearsay, but whether the hearsay was accurate.
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I found the ahadith regarding dogs, donkeys and women interrupting prayer. The first set of selections is from Sahih Muslim; the second from Sahih Bukhari. (Apparently my citations before were incorrect, in that Bukhari apparently has only Aisha’s “refutations”; while the hadith being refuted appears in Muslim.)
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Sahih Muslim
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.1034
Book 004, Number 1032:
Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of 'Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When any one of you stands for prayer and there is a thing before him equal to the back of the saddle that covers him and in case there is not before him (a thing) equal to the back of the saddle, his prayer would be cut off by (passing of an) ass, woman, and black Dog. I said: O Abu Dharr, what feature is there in a black dog which distinguish it from the red dog and the yellow dog? He said: O, son of my brother, I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as you are asking me, and he said: The black dog is a devil.
Book 004, Number 1034:
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: A woman, an ass and a dog disrupt the prayer, but something like the back of a saddle guards against that.
Book 004, Number 1035:
'A'isha reported: The Prophet (may peace be upon him) used to pray at night while I lay interposed between him and the Qibla like a corpse on the bier.
Book 004, Number 1036:
'A'isha reported: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said his whole prayer (Tahajjud prayer) during the night while I lay between him and the Qibla. When he intended to say Witr (prayer) he awakened me and I too said witr (prayer).
Book 004, Number 1037:
'Urwa b. Zubair reported: 'A'isha asked: What disrupts the prayer? We said: The woman and the ass. Upon this she remarked: Is the woman an ugly animal? I lay in front of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) like the bier of a corpse and he said prayer.
Book 004, Number 1038:
Masruq reported: It was mentioned before A'isha that prayer is invalidated (in case of passing) of a dog, an ass and a woman (before the worshipper, when he is not screened). Upon this 'A'isha said: You likened us to the asses and the dogs. By Allah I saw the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) saying prayer while I lay on the bedstead interposing between him and the Qibla. When I felt the need, I did not like to wit to front (of the Holy Prophet) and perturb the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and quietly moved out from under its (i.e. of the bedstead) legs.
Book 004, Number 1039:
Al-Aswad reported that 'A'isha said: You have made us equal to the dogs and the asses, whereas I lay on the bedstead and the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) came there and stood in the middle of the bedstead and said prayer. I did not like to take off the quilt from me (in that state), so I moved away quietly from the front legs of the bedstead and thus came out of the quilt.
Book 004, Number 1040:
'A'isha reported: I was sleeping in front of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) with my legs between him and the Qibla. When he prostrated himself he pinched me and I drew up my legs, and when be stood up, I stretched them out. She said: At that time there were no lamps in the houses.
Book 004, Number 1041:
Maimuna, the wife of the Apostle (may peace be upon him), reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said prayer and I (lay) opposite to him while I was in menses. Sometimes his clothes touched me when he prostrated.
Book 004, Number 1042:
'A'isha reported: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said prayer at night and I was by his side in a state of menses and I had a sheet pulled over me a portion of which was on his side.
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Sahih Bukhari
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/009.sbt.html#001.009.490
Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him."
Volume 1, Book 9, Number 491:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet used to pray while I was sleeping across in his bed in front of him. Whenever he wanted to pray Witr, he would wake me up and I would pray Witr.
Volume 1, Book 9, Number 492:
Narrated 'Aisha:
the wife of the Prophet, "I used to sleep in front of Allah's Apostle with my legs opposite his Qibla (facing him); and whenever he prostrated, he pushed my feet and I withdrew them and whenever he stood, I stretched them." 'Aisha added, "In those days there were no lamps in the houses."
Volume 1, Book 9, Number 493:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The things which annual prayer were mentioned before me (and those were): a dog, a donkey and a woman. I said, "You have compared us (women) to donkeys and dogs. By Allah! I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in (my) bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I disliked to sit and trouble the Prophet. So, I would slip away by the side of his feet."
Volume 1, Book 9, Number 494:
Narrated 'Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet) Allah's Apostle used to get up at night and pray while I used to lie across between him and the Qibla on his family's bed.
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Volume 1, Book 9, Number 498:
Narrated 'Aisha:
It is not good that you people have made us (women) equal to dogs and donkeys. No doubt I saw Allah's Apostle praying while I used to lie between him and the Qibla and when he wanted to prostrate, he pushed my legs and I withdrew them.
ADDENDUM:
But you have the right to review everything yourself.
I would add, not only the right and the responsibility—but that it is inescapable. We review, we interpret, we accept or reject the interpretations of others—and we do all that on our own recognizance and responsibility.
A person says, “I submit to the will of Allah.” But how does he know in all cases that what he has come to believe is the will of Allah—really is?
Well, he might say, “As revealed to Muhammad in the Qur’an.” But the Qur’an is subject to interpretation (which the Qur'an itself specifically allows for).
He might say, “I follow so-and-so.” But on what basis? Because he believes, for whatever reasons good or bad, that so-and-so is correct. And he has to decide that on his own recognizance and responsibility.
Or, he might say, “I follow the sunnah of the Prophet, as handed down in the ahadith.” And then there are, again, questions of authenticity based on isnad and matn. Etc., etc.
It is simply, at bottom, inescapable. And I have always thought that the Prophet understood that, whether some of his followers have always understood it or not. (And I think you do.)
Originally posted by vistesdHello my friend, I need time to read all of this, It will not be monthes I promise 🙂 !!
ADDENDUM:
[b]But you have the right to review everything yourself.
I would add, not only the right and the responsibility—but that it is inescapable. We review, we interpret, we accept or reject the interpretations of others—and we do all that on our own recognizance and responsibility.
A person says, “I submit to the will of Allah.” But how od that, whether some of his followers have always understood it or not. (And I think you do.)[/b]
Thank you for your replay!
Originally posted by ahosyneyWho fockin' cares?
Hadith is the second source of Islamic faith. Hadith is simply what the prophet Mohammed said, did, or accepted from his followers during his life. From Hadith we Muslims get the details of the prophet lifes, worship , law and more. The Hadith is not a book. It is a single event or talk from the prophet attached with a narration chain that gives the name of
Thank you all for reading this thread.
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“Every religion in the world that has destroyed people is based on love”
~ Anton Szandor LaVey ~