03 Sep 06
Originally posted by menace71Goddammit, let's leave freewill out of this discussion. I'm trying to get this boy to come to Jesus.
Will those who are in Heaven still have free will ?? What if after 100,000 years they get tired of worshipping God can they do something else. I think also those in hell who have free will if they could have the choice would want to leave hell??If hell is the place of suffering decribed. Who in there right mind would want to go to such a place of suffering?? Granted there may be some who would.
Manny
03 Sep 06
Originally posted by rwingettAs I recall, it says in Exodus that God did it. This is indeed a troubling theological issue. But if we just keep our eyes on the prize and realize Jesus loves us all inspite of who we are, we will one day get to the promised land. Yea verily, even you, my atheistic nigger in the vineyard of the Lord.
That passage interests me. I don't have a copy handy, but how did this 'hardening' come about? Did Pharoah harden his own heart, or was his heart hardened by some external agent?
03 Sep 06
Originally posted by kirksey957That's what I thought. If god hardened Pharoah's heart (as seems to be the case) then what chance did Pharoah have? God really wanted to slay all the firstborn of Egypt, so he made sure Pharoah would give him the excuse to do so? Your eyes may be on the prize, but the devil is in the details (so to speak).
As I recall, it says in Exodus that God did it. This is indeed a troubling theological issue. But if we just keep our eyes on the prize and realize Jesus loves us all inspite of who we are, we will one day get to the promised land. Yea verily, even you, my atheistic nigger in the vineyard of the Lord.
03 Sep 06
Originally posted by rwingettExternal in my opinion, what would have turned some draws others.
That passage interests me. I don't have a copy handy, but how did this 'hardening' come about? Did Pharoah harden his own heart, or was his heart hardened by some external agent?
When God warns some listen others do not, when God punishes
some repent, others get harden hearts. Like I said this is my opinion.
People are like that, look at what happened when Jesus raised
Lazarus from the dead, they conspired to kill both Jesus and Lazarus
while others believed on Jesus, same event different results. Everyone
could have done different things they choose not to.
Kelly
03 Sep 06
Originally posted by dj2beckerAh, dj—I hope you are well.
I believe that Ravi Zacharais is one of the best Christian oppolgists of our time. I would suggest that the two of them have a discussion.
It might interest him to listen to what Ravi has to say. Ravi, by the way, was born into a royal hindu priesthood.
I believe that Visteads can still have a change of mind.
Sometimes, I think that in your honest evangelical enthusiasm, you think that those of us who do not share your faith must be ignorant, ill-informed, not well-read on the subject—or just perverse. I was a Christian for most of my life (till I was nearly 50), though not in the so-called “evangelical” stream. I was, (later in life, not earlier) accepted at two Lutheran and one Episcopalian seminaries to pursue a master’s degree in theology (there were a number of complex reasons for my ultimate decision not to go that route). Now, perhaps you think that I must never have been a “true” Christian, or that I do not still read the texts of my former religious faith. On both counts, you would just be wrong.
Even when I was strictly a Christian, I studied the other religions—not by reading Christian apologists, but by reading the best works I could find by people in those religions, and non-aligned scholars. I have also read very widely in Christian theology, across denominations.
You have commended us to take a look a the works of Ravi Zacharias. I’ll take a look on my next visit to the library, though I have already found him on the internet. In turn, I commend to you the following: The Perennial Philosophy by Aldous Huxley; and The Transcendent Unity of Religions, by Fritjoff Schuon.
________________________
As for where I am now, I offer the following rendering of John 3:8—
The wind where it wishes blows,
the sound of it you hear, but do not know
whence it comes nor where it goes—
All who are born of the wind travel so.
________________________
Be well.
03 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayIf god hardened Pharoah's heart, then god made Pharoah not repent. Pharoah didn't make a choice. God made Pharoah's choice for him. Do you see my point?
External in my opinion, what would have turned some draws others.
When God warns some listen others do not, when God punishes
some repent, others get harden hearts. Like I said this is my opinion.
People are like that, look at what happened when Jesus raised
Lazarus from the dead, they conspired to kill both Jesus and Lazarus
while others believed on J ...[text shortened]... e event different results. Everyone
could have done different things they choose not to.
Kelly
03 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingettIt is the level playing field view of life as far as I'm concern. We are
If god hardened Pharoah's heart, then god made Pharoah not repent. Pharoah didn't make a choice. God made Pharoah's choice for him. Do you see my point?
in the universe and we are either pushed or pulled by what is here.
We are all stressed and tested by the same things the same ways,
if those ways are just and fair the results will be. It is quite like
business in the regard that on a level playing field everyone has
a chance to make money or not, we have a chance to do the right
thing or not. If you are warned and you refuse to take the warning
to heart your failure is your own, if you act your actions too are your
own. An honest man finding a wallet with money and an ID has the
same choices a dishonest one has when they find it.
Kelly
03 Sep 06
Originally posted by ckoh1965kirksey, if you are a religious person, then you are a rare breed!
kirksey, if you are a religious person, then you are a rare breed! You have an open mind that is so scarce these days. Of course, if it is working, then "who am I to negate this?"
But the religious people in general are not satisfied, you see. No. They insist that you MUST go through their way (religion) to connect to God. If you didn't, then you have r ...[text shortened]... ristianity; whereas the Muslims would say that the only way to heaven is through Islam etc.
He is, indeed, both!
03 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayMy point is that Pharoah didn't have a free choice. God hardened Pharoah's heart and effectively decided what his choice would be. God rigged the outcome and then used it as an excuse to vent his wrath.
It is the level playing field view of life as far as I'm concern. We are
in the universe and we are either pushed or pulled by what is here.
We are all stressed and tested by the same things the same ways,
if those ways are just and fair the results will be. It is quite like
business in the regard that on a level playing field everyone has
a chance to ...[text shortened]... wallet with money and an ID has the
same choices a dishonest one has when they find it.
Kelly
Do you understand the point I am making?
03 Sep 06
Originally posted by rwingettYes, I understand your point. Mine is that on a level playing field it is
My point is that Pharoah didn't have a free choice. God hardened Pharoah's heart and effectively decided what his choice would be. God rigged the outcome and then used it as an excuse to vent his wrath.
Do you understand the point I am making?
the same thing as a found wallet, a dishonest person will take the
money while an honest one will return it. God acts with us the same
way to do the right thing or to not do the right thing, God gives the
same choices to eveyone the same way and with some it simply a
matter of their hearts getting hard while the same dealings given
to another will soften theirs. Now it goes back to truth, if God has
given us our abilities to make our own choices it is us in the end that
causes us to do what we will.
Kelly
03 Sep 06
Originally posted by rwingett1 Kings 21:29 (New International Version)
My point is that Pharoah didn't have a free choice. God hardened Pharoah's heart and effectively decided what his choice would be. God rigged the outcome and then used it as an excuse to vent his wrath.
Do you understand the point I am making?
29 "Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day, but I will bring it on his house in the days of his son."
I believe that God wants to work with us, deal with us, and will act
to help us. The evil we do and our turning from it is something that
God takes very seriously, even with this King in the OT who was one
fo the worst God was willing to mercyful.
Kelly
03 Sep 06
Originally posted by dj2beckerSo by that logic, the 5 billion people alive now will go to hell and only the 1 billion christians will go to heaven? Also, considering there have been around 1 trillion people born and died before our generation, maybe only one percent of those people were christian so 990 billion people would go to hell under that aegis.
I believe that all people that reject Christ will not be partaking of Heaven with Him by their own free will.