How does it feel...

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I don't see anything here that indicates that "one sin damns you to hell". The point rather seems to be that there are the righteous and the unrighteous. All are free to become righteous at any time. I haven't seen anything that would indicate that prior to becoming righteous an individual could not have sinned any number of times and not have "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation" once transformed.

Those you die in their sins, die the death (hell).

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I don't see anything here that indicates that "one sin damns you to hell". The point rather seems to be that there are the righteous and the unrighteous. All are free to become righteous at any time. I haven't seen anything that would indicate that prior to becoming righteous an individual could not have sinned any number of times and not have "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation" once transformed.

To be honest, I'm not sure I do either, but some believers take a strict view of these sort of verses. In their eyes, we are all 'practicing lawlessness'. When he says that all things that offend will be cast out, apparently to them, one sin is all it takes to offend.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
To be honest, I'm not sure I do either, but some believers take a strict view of these sort of verses. In their eyes, we are all 'practicing lawlessness'. When he says that all things that offend will be cast out, apparently to them, one sin is all it takes to offend.

Doesn't seem to me that it's a "strict view", so much as an erroneous view of a verse taken out of context that confirms their bias.

For example take the verse you cited from John 3 with the verses that follow:
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Jesus explains the standard for judgment in John 3:19-21 where He sets up a dichotomy between those whose deeds are "evil", i.e., the unrighteous vs. those whose deeds have "been wrought in God", i.e., the righteous. What's more, earlier in John 3, Jesus explains that a transformation must occur, i.e., that is one must be "born again in the spirit", i.e., the spirit of God where thereafter presumably "his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

It all ties back nicely, but the confirmation bias in most Christians seems to be so strong that they are unable to "come to the Light" and see what Jesus is saying. It's as if their belief in the teachings of Paul and others is so strong that they cannot see what Jesus is saying. In short, they're delusional.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Doesn't seem to me that it's a "strict view", so much as an erroneous view of a verse taken out of context that confirms their bias.

For example take the verse you cited from John 3 with the verses that follow:
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; [b]he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of t ...[text shortened]... rong that they cannot see what Jesus is saying. In short, they're delusional.[/b]

but the confirmation bias in most Christians seems to be so strong that they are unable to "come to the Light"

please tell me does that not seem, well ,even a little self righteous to you?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
but the confirmation bias in most Christians seems to be so strong that they are unable to "come to the Light"

please tell me does that not seem, well ,even a little self righteous to you?

Jesus said what He said. It's as good an explanation as I could come up with. If you have something that you think works better, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Here's another example:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

There's a poster here who insists that here Jesus is speaking of being made free from the "penalty of sin" rather than being made free from committing sin. I don't know a better way to explain it other than a really strong confirmation bias. He sees "the truth will make you free" and associates it with a preconception that Jesus makes him free from the "penalty of sin" so associates it with that even though it flies in the face of what Jesus explicitly states.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Jesus said what He said. It's as good an explanation as I could come up with. If you have something that you think works better, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Here's another example:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the es it with that even though it flies in the face of what Jesus explicitly states.

you know my stance of this, there are two types of sin, those that are committed involuntarily, due to our imperfect nature and wilful sin committed in full acknowledgement of the fact.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you know my stance of this, there are two types of sin, those that are committed involuntarily, due to our imperfect nature and wilful sin committed in full acknowledgement of the fact.

You seem to have missed the point of my post which was about how confirmation bias may explain the drawing of absurd conclusions such as those who insists that Jesus is speaking of being made free from the "penalty of sin" rather than being made free from committing sin in the passage I cited.

Or are you saying that such conclusions are drawn "due to our imperfect nature"?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You seem to have missed the point of my post which was about how confirmation bias may explain the drawing of absurd conclusions such as those who insists that Jesus is speaking of being made free from the "penalty of sin" rather than being made free from committing sin in the passage I cited.

Or are you saying that such conclusions are drawn "due to our imperfect nature"?

actually i don't understand your statement, perhaps if you used simpler language then the thoughts would not be obscured behind the cloak of language.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
actually i don't understand your statement, perhaps if you used simpler language then the thoughts would not be obscured behind the cloak of language.

If you can be specific about which statement and what words in particular are throwing you, I can try to simplify the language, though I really don't think any of the words I've used are at all obscure.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you can be specific about which statement and what words in particular are throwing you, I can try to simplify the language, though I really don't think any of the words I've used are at all obscure.

it was 'confirmation bias', i had never heard of the phenomena before.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it was 'confirmation bias', i had never heard of the phenomena before.

Though I'd think you've heard people allude to it with phrases such as "you see only what you want to see", "you ignore whatever doesn't coincide with your point of view", etc. Right?

So do you have a better explanation of what might be going on with those who insist that passage as meaning "freedom from the penalty of sin" even after it's pointed out to them that it's about "freedom from committing sin"?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Though I'd think you've heard people allude to it with phrases such as "you see only what you want to see", "you ignore whatever doesn't coincide with your point of view", etc. Right?

So do you have a better explanation of what might be going on with those who insist that passage as meaning "freedom from the penalty of sin" even after it's pointed out to them that it's about "freedom from committing sin"?

yes i have heard of these phrases and the wikipedia article was quite interesting, as to whether the statement you refer to can be interpreted as freedom from 'the penalties of sin', i do not think that it is possible, but then i am unaware of the context, but to be sure, sin may be pleasurable at the time, but its spiked with pain and its nature is always corruptive. 'freedom from the penalty of sin, or freedom from committing sin', mmm i need to think about that, for there may be references for the former and the latter, it all really depends on the context i think.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Though I'd think you've heard people allude to it with phrases such as "you see only what you want to see", "you ignore whatever doesn't coincide with your point of view", etc. Right?

So do you have a better explanation of what might be going on with those who insist that passage as meaning "freedom from the penalty of sin" even after it's pointed out to them that it's about "freedom from committing sin"?

"Freedom from committing sin" would mean you are free not to sin, "Freedom from the penalty of sin" would mean you don't have to suffer for those sins in purgatory.

Originally posted by daniel58
"Freedom from committing sin" would mean you are free not to sin, "Freedom from the penalty of sin" would mean you don't have to suffer for those sins in purgatory.

Actually it is freedom from the slavery of committing sin. Jesus said, "everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin" and that "the truth will make you free" from that slavery. So someone that has been made free by continuing in His word and knowing the truth, will no longer commit sin. It's more than being "free not to sin". Everyone is "free not to sin" with or without continuing in His word.


"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Actually it is freedom from the slavery of committing sin. Jesus said, "everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin" and that "the truth will make you free" from that slavery. So someone that has been made free by continuing in His word and knowing the truth, will no longer commit sin. It's more than being "free not to sin". Everyone is "free not to sin" ...[text shortened]... disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

So what's the difference?