01 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI like the Old Testament imagery of the "refiner's fire. Unlike the hell of some of our Revelation scholars, this kind of fire is purposeful in that the refiner carefully watches over the fire to make sure that refinement takes place and is not destruction. What emerges is void of the impurities.
Do people in hell have the option to repent and go to heaven?
One other thing that may make this unpalatable to many is we all get "refined."
01 Apr 07
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWhere else but out of God's presence would he have been happy?
I say that it matters just as much as the rest of your scenario. You say the woman was a religious person who followed the teachings of Jesus. Does that mean your woman simply adhered to a set of rules, or does it mean that she actually did what Christ commanded, i.e., trusted in Him for her salvation instead of herself?
The distinction is relevant be ...[text shortened]... is desired destination. Where else but out of God's presence would he have been happy?
In your view, can one then be eternally happy in hell?
01 Apr 07
Originally posted by kirksey957And this is the understanding of some of the earliest church fathers...
I like the Old Testament imagery of the "refiner's fire. Unlike the hell of some of our Revelation scholars, this kind of fire is purposeful in that the refiner carefully watches over the fire to make sure that refinement takes place and is not destruction. What emerges is void of the impurities.
One other thing that may make this unpalatable to many is we all get "refined."
01 Apr 07
Originally posted by vistesdNo, that's what makes it hell.
[b]Where else but out of God's presence would he have been happy?
In your view, can one then be eternally happy in hell?[/b]
As God is the source from which all happiness is derived, one can only realize the same in conjunction with Him--- directly or otherwise. The few who refuse to adjoin themselves to such a Source may receive the temporary succor which comes from the knowledge that one is getting ones own way. However, such relief is short-lived, lasting only (at best) the span of one's lifetime. At the end of that deluded life, such ones receive their demands.
Their insistence that God is not the source of happiness, but that rather, they will be the arbiters, is proof enough of their desires. God, ever the gentleman, allows them their desires.
01 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHOkay—now that I’ve successfully avoided that trap: 😉
No, that's what makes it hell.
As God is the source from which all happiness is derived, one can only realize the same in conjunction with Him--- directly or otherwise. The few who refuse to adjoin themselves to such a Source may receive the temporary succor which comes from the knowledge that one is getting ones own way. However, such relief is sho biters, is proof enough of their desires. God, ever the gentleman, allows them their desires.
I have to dispute that there is any place/dimension/state-of-being which is, or could be, absent God’s presence...
The West (and particularly, I think, sola scriptura Protestantism) has adopted such a juridical model of soterias, that not only seems to violate the root meaning of the word, but the early church teachings as well. And in this juridical model, we are required to make a decision while “seeing through a glass only darkly”—what honest person really has a clear comprehension of the word “eternity”? I don’t. Mostly, people seem to think of it as just a “really long time.”
“Salvation” means healing; and Kirk’s understanding is well-supported in the early church. It is also, quite frankly, the only view that can make sense of God’s being agape—of agape being God’s being...
Think of the parable of the Good Samaritan, Freaky: We are the man in the ditch, so injured as to be even unable to cry for help, even to know we are in need of salvation. God is the Samaritan—a person we, as common Judeans—hate; if roused to consciousness, we would push him away. Maybe we even do. God knows this. So—he leaves us to suffer and die in the ditch?
You know, Freaky, I don’t think this is a “deal-breaker” for the rest of your theology (or most of it anyway), at least as I think I have understood it over the years.
01 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThis was\is a well written post.
I say that it matters just as much as the rest of your scenario. You say the woman was a religious person who followed the teachings of Jesus. Does that mean your woman simply adhered to a set of rules, or does it mean that she actually did what Christ commanded, i.e., trusted in Him for her salvation instead of herself?
The distinction is relevant be is desired destination. Where else but out of God's presence would he have been happy?
01 Apr 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterThat's right - an omniscient, omnipotent creator is capable of a failure like this.
God might respond by saying " I have tried everything I know to get your son to turn to me but he will not let me in. His heart has become darkened and I cannot reach him without violating his free will. The key to his destiny is inside the door of his heart where I decided it should be placed. I cannot turn it for him. I am as helpless as you are. His ...[text shortened]... respect this. This is the agony of love. When you weep for your son I weep alongside you. "
What a load of bull Christianity is.
02 Apr 07
2 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterWell, for one, you god claims to have "tried everything", but apparently this didn't include simply appearing before the poor guy and introducing himself.
Why?
Pretty poor effort for an omnipotent being.
It's not a violation of free will to give someone all the information to make an informed choice. Your god is someone who hides behind a rock in the desert with infinite bottles of water, while others stagger around dying of thirst.
02 Apr 07
Originally posted by kirksey957Is there any scriptural basis for this, or are you starting your own religion?
I like the Old Testament imagery of the "refiner's fire. Unlike the hell of some of our Revelation scholars, this kind of fire is purposeful in that the refiner carefully watches over the fire to make sure that refinement takes place and is not destruction. What emerges is void of the impurities.
One other thing that may make this unpalatable to many is we all get "refined."
02 Apr 07
Originally posted by rwingettPay no attention to Ivanhoe. Of course there is. Don't you remember that aria from Handel's Messiah "And He Shall Purify"? From Malachi 3:3 "And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he sahll purify the sons of Levi and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."
Is there any scriptural basis for this, or are you starting your own religion?
02 Apr 07
Originally posted by kirksey957This seems to be in invocation on how to refine man's practices on this earth, rather than their souls in the hereafter. In fact, it goes on in Micah 4:1 to say, "For behold, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all the evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch."
Pay no attention to Ivanhoe. Of course there is. Don't you remember that aria from Handel's Messiah "And He Shall Purify"? From Malachi 3:3 "And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he sahll purify the sons of Levi and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."
But then, I'm no biblical scholar...